Bill in Oconomowoc says if the slugs are positioned correctly you don't need jacklines, and only fairleads and cleats for a double-line reefing setup on the boom from the cockpit.
i tend to dis-agree with Bill in O'con. if you don't have jacklines, the main will not drop lower than the "sail stop" on the mast which is located just above the wide opening that accomodates the bolt rope or, in this case, the slides.
the jackline allows for the main to drop all the way to the boom and not be stacked above it.
now, if all you are doing is dropping/reefing once and not hoisting it back into a "full" mainsail position, then I suppose that Bill in O'con is correct.
but most of us want the luxury of going up and down (is that dirty talk?).
Bobby, having Bill's slug setup, I'm not sure what you're talking about not being able to hoist it back up? You do that with the main halyard, not the reefing line.
You don't remove the slug stop with Bill's setup. The luff folds down at the slug below the reefing cringle, which is pulled all the way down to the hook on the gooseneck, then the luff runs back up to the slug that is above the reefing cringle. The sail from the reefing cringle up, the part you normally have in effect when reefed, runs from the boom up, just as it is if you were to reef any other way.
* If the track-stopper (in mast track) is approximately 12 inches above the gooseneck,
* and if the two slugs nearest the reefing cringle have been spaced just a little more than one foot (below and above the cringle),
* then that spacing will permit that cringle to be hooked without a jackline.
Slug spacing would need be a little wider at the second (higher up) reefing cringle. Now what I'm wondering ... does Bill have some idea of the logic intended in the sail slug mods pictured by AXL ??
(I never knew before that BB4S is also Bill O'con).
Is possible that the jackline is needed to use with single-line reefing, or double line reefing, from the cockpit.
They pointed out that sail slugs, halyards run to the cockpit and single-line/double line reefing controlled from the cockpit are all mods that work together to control the mainsail without going up on deck, or minimizing going on deck.
Whether a cockpit controlled reefing system is ok compatible with the sail slugs arrangement not on a jackline, i don't know.... maybe those with the B4S Ocon. method could answer that.
Last edited by ALX357 on Wed Aug 03, 2005 7:21 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Regarding location of sail slugs on jackline:
I submiited a modification (drawings) to the Mac Mods page in Sept. 2003.
It is in two parts in the Rigging Category.
Just to straighten a few things out, I agree totally that the shape of the lower corner of Al's sail is NOT AT ALL RIGHT. Some of you have correctly observed that the jack line appears too short (potentially a mistake by our sailmaker, no one is perfect, although he has done about 800 of these conversions). The problem with this sail is that the luff rope is badly shrunken (a problem common to many sails), which causes the need for WAy too much halyard tension to properly flatten the sail. The only fix needed to achieve good sail shape, athough no slugged sail ever has the potential for the ideal shape offered by a bolt rope sail, is to release the bolt rope to balance the tension of the sail and the rope.
The unfortunate reality is that as Dacron sailcloth ages, it stretches slightly, and the rope in the luff shrinks as it is ages. Pretty soon you need a HUGE amount of halyard tension to achieve good sail shape, eventually it becomes impossible to properly hoist the sail.
A common symptom that is often missunderstood is the feeling that the aft end of the boom is lower than it used to be. Most people think that the leach of the sail is stretched out although this is very seldom the problem. The usual cause is that the shrunken bolt rope prevents you from houisting the sail all the way up. I have seen them shrunken as much as 6 or 7 inches, you can imagine the effect of bunching up 6 inches of extra sailcloth in the middle of the sail, RINKLE CITY!
One additional note, the reason we put jack lines on our sails (like most modern cruising sails) is that while you can reef without them, you cannot use a proper single line reefing setup without the entire sail pulling down to the boom, it just doesn't work right if part of the sail is held up at the sail stop.
Well it's great to get some feed directly from the horse's mouth ... thanks for weighing-in, Todd.
I've had my gooseneck casting fractured twice, so I know they're not all that substantial. And it's clear that the factory's stainless tubing gooseneck is intended to provide flexibilty at the boom/mast joint. I don't see the logic in applying the halyard tension aft of the gooseneck, so my questions remain ....
What's the logic in having the boom directly carrying the main halyard tension?
And, is that 45-degree tack a standard arrangement, or makeshift for Al's old sail?
sniff... "old sail," ? it's only 5 years old... boat hasn't seen that much usage, considering the condition of the rigging and hull and sail cloth.
i was born in '51 for comparison, and rankle at the suggestion i might be old. ( A.D. nineteen hundred and fifty-one, not 1851 )
Just for accuracy - the BWY single-line reefing system includes 3 cheek BLOCKS , which would reduce friction greatly, but might not achieve the correct tension on each end of the sail. Personally l prefer a double line cockpit system with fairleads for simplicity.
There are 3 very BIG problems with single-line reefing, IMO, based upon the rather conventional style that was installed as a dealer option on my new boat.
1. The reefing line is a hopeless mass of spaghetti because of the distances it must travel ... minimum 35 feet? This is a massive PITA when rigging and de-rigging the boat
2. The friction in the system, as Moe observed, is severe enough to make it nearly unusable. My dealer tried to show it to me on one boisterous day on the Bay and he had to go up on deck and plant feet against the mast to pull in the reef .... missing the "merchantability" target by a wide margin!
3. As ably described by head sailmaker in Pineapple Sails' "reefing article", the inate design of single reefing fails in the essentials of reefing ... to first secure the luff, then secure the foot. It's a long article w/ lots of hints ... be sure to read far enough down the page.
(Article excerpt, re single-line reefing):" ...some single line systems do not have a "single line," but rather two separate lines, one is the reef clew line which lives inside the boom with a block attached, and the other, which starts at the front of the boom, travels aft to this block, then forward to the reef tack, then down and aft to the cleat...not simple."
Moe's right, I designed my outhaul with the "explicitly dual function" of serving as the "clew end" of a two-line reefing system. I haven't finished the implementation because, even with 2-line reefing, item #1 is still an obstacle. I'd like to internalize the outhaul and also create an internal "take-up" to manage the lines.
P.S. for AXL: yeah, my boat is a 2000, same as yours. I was dismayed to see Todd's description that your sail is "NOT AT ALL RIGHT" cause it means mine needs attention too!
You're all pretty well right about the various reefing systems, they are all a compromise, and none is perfect.
The BWY system does use blocks wherever possible to reduce drag, but is still not as free running as it would be in a perfect world. Although the sheave radius numbers are valid in many applications, they are not at all a concern at the low running loads in this application. To be honest, we use it as a "double line" system as much as single line, simply by pulling aft on the line comming from the front of the sail first to pull the tack down tight, then pulling on the tail of the line to pull the clew down last, this is simple, quick and very effective, and yes 30 feet of line is somewhat of a hassle, but again none of the systems are perfect.
Some systems use a block on one side of the sail (these can work without a jack line, although you can never get the sail shape as smooth near the tack as you would with a jack line, the reason so many modern cruising sails have jacklines) so that the reef line does not pass through the kringle of the sail at all. These have the disadvantages of putting more stress on the sail, pulling assymetrically, having one more piece of hardware on the sail to snag on stuff while going up and down, and still have the extra spaghetti, but they run smooth and have the lowest friction.
The stock system has the obvious disadvantage of having to go forward to hook it on the reefing hook (which is now in he wrong place if you have slides on your sail) and keep it there until you get the halyard tensioned. The upside is no reefing line (or lines) to get tangled, especially while rigging and derigging the boat.
Again, none of these systems are perfect but they all work. We have settled on a system that has been widely liked by our customers over 800 boats and 17 years.
Remember, many of you who are active on this forum are really into your boats and spend a lot more time tinkering than the average Mac owner, if you want to go through the trial and error process of tuning for racing perfection, there are really cool ways to do things (BELIEVE ME, La Pera Noir is a big trial and error project, but that's part of why Roger and I built her!). Our off the shelf kits are tried, true and simple. As time progresses and we get more comfortable with some of the exotic rigging on "The Pearl", we will make some of those things available, but not until they are past the experimental stage.
As to the age of sails, a 5 year old stock sail is certainly at least middle aged, and if it has been sailed a lot, poorly cared for, or frequently sailed in windy conditions, it's probably about done. None of the sails are in condition to power the boat efficiently after about 8 or 10 years unless you only sail a few times a year. This is true of Macgregor sails, and virtually all production boat sails such as Hunter, Catalina, Etc.
It is an unfortuate misconception that sails are worn out when they begin to fall apart, this is NOT true of dacron sails, they are worn out when the resin in the cloth is gone and they become elastic. The draft in a worn out sail INCREASES when the wind picks up, the exact opposite of what you want. Most people who have a 6, 8, or 10 year old boat and buy a new mainsail, find that they can carry full sail in 4, 5, or even 6 Knots more wind without uncomfortable heeling.
Every individual sailor has different priorities that effect when they replace their sails, but mostly it is believed to be a balance between performance and cost. On a cruising boat the true balance should be considered to be between comfort and cost, because the biggest perfomance loss in tired sails is due to excessive heel and leeway, not so much lost speed. If you or a crewmember thinks the boat heels too much and you have older sails, you would probably be AMAZED at the improvement.
With all this said, the pictures of Al's sail don't necessarilly show a shot sail, just one BADLY in need of retensioning the luff rope, as all of these sails do as they age, it is a simple, inexpensive and for lot's of people a do-it-yourself fix.
So AXL ... since you had already snipped the luff rope stitching, it still looks completely hosed.
Tell ya what ... I'll sell you my completely normal, five-year old mainsail. It's got the conventional slugs & jackline, PLUS the second reef-point as installed by Pineapple Sails in San Francisco.
I'll get some pix this weekend and YOU set the price!
Regarding location of sail slugs on jackline:
sniff... "old sail," ? it's only 5 years old... boat hasn't seen that much usage, considering the condition of the rigging and hull and sail cloth.
