26M PHRF

[normo]

I am a long time racer and have "raced" my X for a couple of years now in beer can races so I have a decent feel how well it does against other conventional sailboats and racing designs. In addition I'm on our local Handicap Committee and one of the members is a longstanding senior official in the US Sailing handicapping. He is an official at several major regattas i.e. Key West Race Week, Block Island Race Week and so forth. I have quizzed him extensively and he headilly admits that the PHRF system has several glowing shortcomings.

I can tell you with a gamblers confidence that the 26X or M cannot even come close to keeping up with a miriad of conventional sailboats having ratings in the low 200s or the mid 200s or the high 200s or low 300s. I have made several changes to enhance performance on my X but the improvements were slight. I sail my X with an assigned convenience rating of 300. We use a pursuit start on beer can races so it is easy to measure the shortfall. We normally finish several minutes behind all but the slowest cruising tubs in this 4.3 mile triangular race. In a windward/leeward race the X or M will do poorly as their windward performance is poor at best. In light air forget it. In heavy air maybe worse.

PHRF ratings are supposed to be based upon the experience with the local fleet. Of course this assumes the boat is in tip top racing condition, crew skills are near perfect and their tactics are flawless. Local PHRF raters look at other areas and tend to copy them for a starting point. If you look at a US Sailing PHRF book you will see some PHRF fleets that deviate widely from the average or mean of all the published ratings but by and large you see the same numbers over and over. Differences for a given boat are supposed to reflect different sailing conditions. Several fleet ratings for the Mac are quite low which I believe reflects the "do it like the others do" and not a rigoruous assessment.

If you have well equpped boat with good sails and an experienced crew there is no reason you should not be able to be competitive or win races. PHRF ratings are supposed to provide a level playing field. Unfortunately they rarely do. The all out racing fanatics think they are gifted the right to top finishes every time. There is a reason good sailors tend to own boats that do well.

If your boat is well equipped I suggest you ask your local handicapper to sail with you and see firsthand what you are dealing with. For an X I believe a rating in the mid 300s is a better starting point. I haven't sailed on the M but the PHRF is probably within 20 points or so of the X.

Bottom line is that serious sailors and racing fleets do not want a boat like the Mac as a competitor. In fairness to the racing crowd, the Mac is not well suited for serious PHRF racing. It will finish so far behind the others that they will always be waiting for the Mac to finish so the next race can be started.

[Tripp Gal]

I guess I think a bit differently than other handicappers in that I strongly feel that phrf is a race what 'cha brung kind of system for people who want to compete against their peers who may or may not have the same boat as them. But then again I believe that handicappers need to be out on the water all the time as well as you can't really look at results to determine just how fast a boat is or isn't. We have a boat up here who has great inline speed and as long as the crew doesn't have to tack, change sails, or make tactical decisions, they can sail to their boats rating. Bless their hearts when they actually have to complete an evolution though. So their results show them in the back of the pack regularly. By looking soley on the results one would think the boat is slow relative to it's rating, but it isn't. it's all about the fact that they can't get out of their own way.

Our club has adjustments we make for people who carry a full cruising complement, have anchors on the bow, sails are older than 8 years, etc. Also, the competitive racers choose to take an additional hit to their rating (ours is 15 seconds) so that the playing field evens out a bit when new sailors hit the course.

Generally speaking, all the one number rating systems have their shortcomings , and the biggest one across all is that when the variance between boats is too great, the math fails. all the systems do a great job of rating and comparing like to like, such things close in speed potential and in categories of boat types. And to me, that is what the club sailor needs. can PHRF meet those needs? I think so, but a few mods have to be made to make it a reality.

Let's face it, any sailing club no matter how casually formed or how old, has a fleet of sailors who like to go out and sail around the cans in their own boats. rather than having the sailors adapt to the system, the system should adapt to the sailors needs.....

[baldbaby2000]

As far as handicapping is concerned, you have to swallow hard and cop it in the knowledge that you won't be taking the champagne home. The fact is that length and sail area/displacement ratios involved in fixing formula-based handicaps are always going to ignore some of the home truths about the Mac's 'other' dimensions.

It is possible to actually win. See: http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/b ... 00526m.jpg. We took first in a 3 race bouy race series at LOWISA 2005. I have to concede that it was more of an endurance race with gusts to 30 knots. We had a 150% Genny (wish we had our jib up) and a reefed main. I think we were more determined than our competitors but that counts as much as anything. We were giving a handicap of 240.

[They Theirs]

PHRF Ratings, How Fair is Fair?

[Richard O'Brien]

. We took first in a 3 race bouy race series at LOWISA 2005. We were giving a handicap of 240.

"A good thing you didn't know you couldn't possibly win according to the stats and opinions

[baldbaby2000]

Normo has some good points. I think it's kind of a self fulfilling profecy that slow boats are hard to deal with in races. The reason is that that the committee tends to have everyone run the same course so the slow guys get frustrated along with the race committee so the slow guys don't bother to race again. The result is that you end up with only fast boats so the race is biased towards them. If they would have a different course for the slower boats, it could work out, and in some events I've been in they do this. In the Leukemia cup last year they had us at one end of the PHRF spectrum and Corsair 27 trimarans on the other; all running the same course. I think it's stupid to run a race like that.

As an aside: It always seemed to me that the Portsmouth method was superior to PHRF. The handicap can be a function of wind. The 26M doesn't seem to do well in light wind but I've been in races where in about 10 knots wind, on a close reach, it was able to hold it's own.

[They Theirs]

Sometimes its the Yacht Club setting up the coarse.

We raced the up/down and spinnaker home for several Wednesday night beer can competitions and found the Same-Old, Same-Old was getting a bit long in the tooth. We complained to the Commodore, who crewed on our boat on some around the Islands races, and he said the club wanted everyone to finish early so they could help the club with the Bars take. The more time at the bar, the bigger their tab. We threatened to quit if they did not vary the coarse. The coarse changed, and more boats started showing upAmazing!

[Richard O'Brien]

The 26M doesn't seem to do well in light wind but I've been in races where in about 10 knots wind, on a close reach, it was able to hold it's own.

That's my experience too. I thinks the waterballast is just too heavy to drag around in light winds, but above 10 kts. and assuming you don't panic jibe (I did that a couple of times) at the first sign of heeling, these boats can hold their own. The only way to compete consistently would be to not fill the ballast tank under 10 kts. , as you suggested. At my marina there was an old sailor named Cap who'd sailed all his life. He never put the ballast in his X, and was pretty darned fast. I haven't seen him in over a year now? maybe he capsized

[mighetto]

Frank, did you eat paint chips as a kid? It would explain a lot.

Over the line? Sorry.

PHRF was set up for our kind of boats and not for old big race boats. Serious race boats are expected to have their own venues. Their kind in PHRF venues scare folks who should be racing because racing builds crew competency. There is nothing fun about being hunted by a large under crewed vessel that is basically in perpetual practice mode and in my first year of racing this was more common than it should have been. Our defense against this unsportsman like behavior is to get our engines ready, on, but not engaged. Then protest. Hunter crews have the same problems MacGregors do but fortunately there are many former MacGregor owners now in power organizing and running the PHRF races. There is also the cool fact that MacGregors are Costa Mesa Builds in the tradition of Cals and Rangers.

The Max26x,owing to PHRF rules allowing the discharge and taking on of water during a race, is an attractive machine for racing, and if you look at the Mac26x brouchure you can see the designer's intent for the vessel to be raced. We were not allowed to race the X as intended in PHRF NW venues until last year and even then I had been fooled into believeing that foils could not be retracted. No one will admit to this tom fooly today.of course the X easially obtains 9 plus knots down wind in normal conditions 12 MPH and above - fully ballasted with centerfoil up and three big crew members. So there is a bit of fear as well.

The 17 MPH under sail claim by MacGregor is not a farce.

The M by the numbers is faster than the X but the numbers do not take planing into effect and most of the speed is in sail area. I think of the M now as a blue water cruiser rather than race trainer. Of course there is the pearl.

ModEdit - Frank M - thanks for your post, its always an interesting read. Please make an effort to make everyone feel welcome here, as all views from the inane to the extreme are welcome as a core part of Board philosophy, as long as the guidelines are followed.

[Lease]

One of the thoughts that kept recurring when deciding on purchasing was the "wonder what it is like in light winds with no ballast" question.

So far, attempts have been inconclusive. The Marlay Point race exercise was a dud owing to the ballast seeping back in over the preceeding couple of days, and the other effort was confused by ultra heavy steering that made a joke of even trying to race the boat.

Over the winter, I want to change a few things to make the boat a bit easier to sail, though original thoughts of radical rig changes (such as ditching the spreaders and replacing with diamonds and runners) are gone, and in their stead is simply a means to vary rig tension, getting a proper backstay, changing to a fully battenned main and jib, fitting a cunningham, and maybe, maybe, a proper traveller. And of course, a spinnaker that will work for both cruising and racing.

After that, in conditions that are favourable, I'd like to have another go at sailing light. The point though, is that it is merely trying to find what works, and what doesn't work on this particular type of boat for me cause I like to race every now and then.

None of it will compromise what I really got the thing for. The best cruising that we have had from any boat so far.

[wtelliott]

Normo wrote: "We use a pursuit start on beer can races so it is easy to measure the shortfall. "
Hey, I really like that idea. I have NO racing experience and am a rookie cruiser, so as long as they would allow me and my 26X to start the race the previous weekend, I really think I could do well. Perhaps even finish.

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

I really want to see 17mph on one of these boats. I also think it can be done with enough wind, a properly tuned rig and a good crew. The problem is that most Macsters are overly conservative...myself included. I've done enough windsurfing, laser and Hobie Cat sailing to know how fast you can go in a strong wind, and how increasingly spectacular the wipeouts can be if you push it too hard. I really don't want to capsize my Mac though, would really wipeout my microwave, pressure water system, electronics, etc.

As I mentioned once before: If someone in my area wants to strip down their Mac (or buy a new one which is empty), I'd love to help you crew it on a strong wind day to see if we can break the plane. Once it goes over its bow wave, it will accelerate with less force required than breaking over the wave. I can never quite get it to that point though...at around 9mph, it starts trying to break its bow wave and I never can get the extra pressure required to break free. But of course, I have my ballast in and I don't want to wet my boat. With all the cushions out, no motor (or a small kicker) and an empty Mac, we could sail it without ballast..like a big dinghy. I'll wear my swimsuit...and if it goes over, We'll stand on the DB/CB (pulling on the main halyard) and it will pop right out like a sunfish.

I think it can be done....but nobody wants to flood their waterbago... So, any takers?

And just think of all the hull we could raise at the yacht club races when we pull up with our Super Mac, get a hefty 250+ rating and then break out onto a plane at the start, leaving the fleet behind and keeping pace with the multi's. (of course, that would only be on the downwind race but is still cool to think about). What about the big racing Spinaker? Is that large enough to pull a Mac onto a true plane? Anyone ever had one out in a blow?

Yes Tripp, I'll put down the crack pipe now...

[They Theirs]

Some PHRF information to look over I'm having trouble figuring displacement.
(Good Laugh in the "Just for Fun" page down)

Note the Larger Spinnaker is flying on a "M" boat without an engine.
Wow! He just dropped 500+lbs of engine and Fuel, but the tank is still aboard

[Catigale]

What about the big racing Spinaker? Is that large enough to pull a Mac onto a true plane? Anyone ever had one out in a blow?

Not sure if you mean the cruising spinnaker here - but imho the cruising spin is really light cloth and would blow out in not much of a wind...

It is a lot of fun in light air though!!

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

No, there are two different spins, the big one flys off a 6 foot bow sprit.



More details about how they compare here:

http://www.macgregor26.com/spinnakers.htm

Bill, did they ever get the racing spin out to dealers and will it work with a 26X?