The more I look

[Divecoz]

The more I read. There seem to be more than just MacGregors Out there with no backstay's. . . and 36 ft boats with 50+ ft. mast among others.

[playmaker]

yea-Hunter has a 30 footer actually 29.6LOA with a 46' mast and no backstay. Sails very nicely. Has a 4' draft.

[They Theirs]

I like modern Rig Design
From the Net:

Swept back spreaders support the mast without a permanent backstay, and running backstays are applied for only the roughest conditions. Rig tension can be gained by a muli-purchase system for the forestay. The fractional rig can carry a nearly masthead length genoa in light airs, giving amazing speed in those conditions. Water ballast lends power in a blow, but a keel bulb provides ultimate stability.(Delivi and Baldbaby 2000 are testing)

The big advantage of this rig is that it allows more roach in the leech of the mainsail increasing sail area for better downwind performance. The swept back spreaders also give a great amount of fore and aft support to the mast, eliminating the need for a backstay.

The downside to having spreaders swept back in excess of 25 degrees is that it creates too narrow of a shroud base, which means the mast gets less lateral support and the shrouds have to pull harder to keep the mast standing. This creates enormous load pressures. Another major disadvantage to the swept back spreaders is when running, they restrict how far the boom can be let out. Three problems with this situation; main chafe on the spreaders, not being able to depower the main quickly in heavy winds and you round up, and you are forced to oversheet the main and gybe downwind because you can't set the boat up on a dead run.

[Frank C]

None of the recent Hunter sailboats have backstays, whatever the size boat. They are called B&R rigs ... aft-swept spreaders instead of backstay, plus some rigid struts that support the lower mast.
(Backstay-less-ness is one idea that Roger copied - didn't invent).

[They Theirs]

Perry On Design

I like this type of rig. Its very similar to the rig on my boat. The main is the big sail, making jib selection less important. The mainsheet traveler in the middle of the cockpit where the helmsman can easily adjust it. The highly swept spreaders make runners unnecessary. Of course, the problem with spreaders swept this much is that you begin to impale the mainsail when the sheet is eased. Good spreader chafe patches on the mainsail are a must for this type of rig. Swept spreaders are a good way of teaching you not to sail dead downwind.

~~~~~~~~~~~~`

Yachts opted for a fractional rig with swept back spreaders that make the boat easy to sail short handed, although she is no slouch on the race course

For 110% genoa and swept spreaders on the gunwale a whole different approach is required. However, it rarely pays off to have a cap shroud angle greater than 14 degrees. If the cap shroud angle that is too large this can actually lead to some torsional instability, which has been seen, on carbon rigs. Carbon rigs have a fairly low shear modulus and are prone to excessive twisting, which can be annoying or unsettling in some cases.

Fractional Sail Plan with Swept Spreaders

Racer / Cruiser
Masthead Spinnaker for Racing
Fractional Spinnaker/MPS for Cruising
No runners (possible)
short handed cruising, short handed racing
small yachts, small crew

Spreader Rake

Once a swept rig is decided on the next question is what angle of spreader rake. If you have a spreader rake of 30 degrees on a fractionally rigged yacht, the chances are that you will need little or no runner loads. Indeed many yachts with 30-degree rake have no runners what so ever. The cap shrouds are effective at tensioning the forestay and provided J the jib foot is not too long considerable forestay tension is developed without runners. At the same time you have a swept rig and cannot modify mast bend / luff curve as in an inline rig. So, you have not been able to get the benefit of either configuration. The cliche 'in for a penny, in for a pound' holds true albeit poorly paraphrased. If spreader rake is between 0 and 5 degrees this is to all intents and purposes inline and would normally just be treated as 0 degrees/ inline.

[NautiMoments]

What about when you ad a masthead spinnaker to an 26M? Should I also ad runner. Or is it best to attach the spinnaker at the existing foresail point.

Is it wise to sail with just a spinnaker, without runners, on the 26M? Without the main sail tentioned up would it be ok to run the spinnaker or would it overstress the shrouds with no backstay?

[Divecoz]

None of the recent Hunter sailboats have backstays, whatever the size boat. They are called B&R rigs ... aft-swept spreaders instead of backstay, plus some rigid struts that support the lower mast.
(Backstay-less-ness is one idea that Roger copied - didn't invent).

Water ballast is not new either nor are fiberglass boats . But after what I had read here numerous times in the past,
I was somewhat surprised to find that a lot of sailboats are backless so to speak and some imho. . .are rather large .
Rotating Mast is far from new as well . He / Roger may not be a Nautical Inventor , but he sure seems to make some good choices /picks when putting together a boat of this size and cost . I have been out sailing a couple times a week (requires 3 hrs R/T ) and though none of the Salts I have spoken with presently own Mac's they all seemed to know them and each assured me that I have a safe and stable little craft.That makes me feel even better about my choice . When others who could bust me choose not to, and then actually compliment me on my boat.

[delevi]

Although my rig is very tight (forestay & upper shrouds) I still installed runners. I noticed an improvement in pointing ability. I just recently sailed with the a-spin w/o main sail. Using the runners made me quite comfortable with the setup. Granted, the wind was quite light. I don't think a masthead spin is a good idea, but that's just my SWAG. I have no experience or research on this type of setup. I may end up lowering the tension on the upper shrouds, since my mast often has a hard time rotating unless the wind is heavy, and it takes a lot of load with the mast raising gear to be able to attach or remove the forestay. I'm not sure if the induced mast bend, which is still minor on the M mast is worth the extra loads, issues with rotation and additional effort in rigging.

Leon

[They Theirs]

Michael Cantwells backstay system for his M still under R&D phase, waiting the results.
testing with a LOOS Gauge reading. (Click Here)
Having knowledge of your investment in improving your Ms big air performance, Im sure the BWY Mast Base Bearing will improve rotation, if you do not already have one. That combined with the best Lines Led Aft system for least restrictive controls without leading them to the cabin top should allow your M the upper and lower shroud tension needed.
Note The Green and Red Halyard Pivoting swivel cleat blocks are led over the cabin slider and drop into the cabin opening. Both blocks have a good SWL
(Safe Working Load 300 lb plus, Max Load.....2000 lb plus)

I believe BWY has shared their experimental M improvements, and I have yet to see any masthead genoa or spinnaker information, even for light air performance. Most M spinnakers appear have their spinnaker block a couple feet above the head stay. (might make jibe a bit more difficult with the sheets outside the headstay, but improved with an adjustable/articulating extendable bow pole.)

We need some brainstorming on an adjustable forestay to benefit the Ms rotating spar in light and heavy air on and off the wind, for performance.

Most have been positive about their running backs, and Im sure they are only needed in heavy air or rough conditions when sailing or motoring.

[Divecoz]

For lack of better description.
TT. . .that roller cam cleat ? Can I get that with just two rollers no cleat? I think I would like one for my mast . Bill set my boat up from the get-go to be single handed and he lead all lines aft, but I think that a double roller with a swing/swivel to it would reduce the drag a lot.
My Mast is sticking some as well I will try to llub it first I think

[They Theirs]

The downward thrust created from tensioning the upper and lower shroud when the mast is stepped could be regulated with an adjustable forestay. Compounding the downward pressure on the mast base washer, with halyard tension from the main and jib is multiplied when the breeze is up and the M is heeled hard over. Some have stated this compounding load on the base does not impair the M mast ability to rotate with the wind. Just as the effort to steer the boat from the helm with the engine/rudders connected without heel is low, as the boat heels over the engines over center weight increases the force necessary to hold or turn the wheel, disconnect the engine when sailing for a better helm.

The M spar will rotate better without additional downward thrust. If we can control the tension of the forestay, it will certainly rotate with less friction in light air. Having an adjustable forestay would mirror an adjustable backstay on a boat without its sweptback spreaders. The halyard tension varies with the rotation of the spar when the blocks are base or deck mounted off the mast, for standard non-rotating spar lines led aft rigging design.

Using deck mounted blocks off the mast with a rotating mast, depends on the lofty vertical distance (i.e. Main Halyard block to deck turning block, to someway reduce the potential for restricting the rotation of the mast, plus the added tension of the halyard on the Mast base bearing surface.) as anything near the bottom of the mast controlling the halyard direction to the deck, would be very restrictive to mast rotation and make controlling halyard tension difficult.

[mtc]

The backstay certainly isn't 'needed' on our little sloops, but certainly does help with pointing and mostly my comfort level.

I've been on boats when the mast came down - not only a freaky event, but scary as hull! And, trust me - it all happens reeeeaaaalllllll fast. Once was when a quick pin on the forestay came out 'quickly' (don't use them on the forestay) the other was from a break in the mast step. On both occasions, no one was hurt, but that's only because no one was in harm's way. When the mast comes down, you don't have time to move and, most likely, nowhere to go.

I've installed my backstay to help with pointing and can get noticeable tension on the forestay without too much bend in the mast. The M's mast is pretty flexible, but I keep the tension reasonable - why use more than necessary?

Pointing greatly improved, which still isn't where I want it to be, but compared to the jib luff flopping around (exaggerating) when beating, now Bellaroo targets well and tracks smoothly.

To prevent me from killing myself with the mast when I'm loading it aft, I also installed a stationary forestay with just enough slack to allow the jib to be tight before the forestay stops mast bend. This way, I know my mast will move, but only as far as I've designed into the two stays, fore and back. The forestay installs quickly when steping the mast and the safety factor is priceless. I want to pay attention to the sail trim, not the mast.

My SS backstay mount in this post (first I thought, 'wow, looks a lot like mine. . . ') held up wonderfully in several good blows (15 to 30kts) way too much wind for canvas up on this boat, but it was a trial and I wanted to push the boat. With six on board, we still had about 15 - 20 heel, still somewhat over powered - needed to reef, but shifted crew instead.

Although I've never heard of an M's mast coming down, with my backstay, having the forestay gives me that extra sense of safety and also adds a lot to the rig visual. Seems too big a boat for no stays, IMHO.

I'll get my Loos on the rigging sometime and let you know what difference the bs adds. Performance-wise, it's made a difference - tight jib luff, improvement in pointing and tracking, less mast/rigging flop, no rotation problems, enhanced running.

I know, the Mac is not a racing boat, but we'd all agree, her stock rigging and sail control are spartan for sake of the pricepoint. With proper sail and rigging controls, she performs much better than stock.

She's no Corsair, but I could have two Macs for one corsair, maybe three. Besides, if catrhing the Corsair was really important, all I need to do is drop my Merc 60 and blend some water, eh?

Michael

[Frank C]

... Compounding the downward pressure on the mast base washer, with halyard tension from the main and jib is multiplied when the breeze is up and the M is heeled hard over.

Mike, you sure about that?
Seems from here that those swivel cleats for the halyards actually constrain all halyard tension onto the mast itself, and prevent any rotation impairment ... ?

[They Theirs]

I probably did not make it clear, as I was referring to deck or base mounted turning blocks. My theory is probably in error, but I believe youre better off keeping the halyard or any tension applied downward on the mast swivel to a less is better for rotation. Of coarse maintaining forestay tension is a must for sailing on the wind as Michael Cantwell provided in his M Backstay Upgrade on the rotating mast update. I like his backstay for its simplicity, but favor the Running Backs for direct application of forestay tension. The backstay might be somewhat restrictive to a large roach main, or conflict with our bimini, but then the hassle of Running Backs cannot be overlooked. Thank goodness theyre greatest benefit is when the breeze is up.

[delevi]

TT,

My swivel block for the main halyard is attached to one of the holes for the mast raising kit and does nothing to impair rotation. The only time I have rotation issues is if I crank my upper shrouds really tight to induce mast bend. I recently let them out a bit, lubed the mast base and it rotates just fine. I'm wondering if the bend is counter-productive, from pulling some of the mast aft, thus creating more rake, which is what I was trying to overcome with a tight forestay.

As for hassle with the runners, I modified mine by adding snap shackles between the solid line and the lower part which has the purchase blocks. This was done to be able to release the leeward stay prior to a tack. I found that by just letting it loose, it would sometimes bind up, thus preventing the main from going out far enough, which is potentially dangerous. I also got tangled in one of the loose lines halfway through a tack, and had a scary thought of the boom, or a line catching the stay and pulling it while being tangled. That was that. I added the shackles. Now, when I release the lazy stay, I just clip it to the lifeline forward of the cockpit and let it slide forward-out of the way. This is much safer and less messy. The down side is I have to use my boat hook to pull the runner back in to re-attach. Not too big a deal and well worth it, in my opinion.