Discouraged Going Up Wind, Close hauled, Cannot Point

[Radonic]

I purchased a Brand New MacG M fully loaded 2005, close to $60K, and now I am very disappointed in the sailing ability into the wind, close hauled, especially in heavier wind, I dont even mean too heavy just 15 - 20 knots. I was trying to race at our yacht club, and I can t even start a race, since we start up wind, if the wind is over 15 knots, the boat locks up, and I cant steer to the wind or away from the wind, it only goes straight, last week when this happened the incimeter read 45 degrees and the rudders act as a brake. eventually the boat stops, I cant move, I have to start the motor to get out of this.

I had a professional instructor on board, and he had the same problem. There is nothing he could do to free it. I am 250lbs and basically hung out the side of the life lines, and that allowed us to tack to windward, with much difficulty.

He basically told me to get rid of the boat and buy a real sail boat.

I also gave up trying to race. I dont expect to come in better than last in a club race, but at least be able to start and round a few marks.

Any rigging, trimming or purchase of high performance rudders or dagger boards, at this point money is no object, I just want a boat that sails. recommendations

[Frank C]

Might never win a race, but surely should at least start, and round the first mark. There are reams of discussion on this topic if you scan thru this forum, maybe also the Powersailer forum.

The primary thing you need to consider is mast rake ... maybe yours is invalid from the get-go, since I've never heard a problem so severe. But many owners reduce the factory rake setting, first step. Search on Mast Rake (all terms). Read for a couple hours. Post more questions right here.

Welcome aboard, and don't despair.

[baldbaby2000]

I'm a little surprised you can't even start a race. I've raced my M countless times; I don't always do well but I usually get a good start. Check your mast rake and make sure it's not extreme. Do you use a genoa? I've found I'm usually better off with a jib. Sounds like you're getting overpowered (45 deg heel is a lot) which probably means reefing and maybe partially furling the headsail. Usually if it's over 15 knots I consider putting a reef in and hopefully I'll have the jib on and not the genoa, but just reefing the main should help a lot. If I run the genoa it seems that what I gain going offwind I loose going upwind due to being overpowered.

You have to keep your speed up in this boat to maintain control. My theory, based on my experience and what I read, is that with a boat with a high aspect ratio daggerboard, long and skinny, sufficient boat speed is critical to give the daggerboard the lift needed to maintain control. Make sure you have some headway before you try to head up or you'll just stall out. Also do the usually things in heavy air: flatten the sail by tightening the halyard (or Cunningham) and outhaul and move your headsail cars aft so the top of the headsail spills some air. You might also let your traveller out a little. Also make sure your mast is rotating.

There has been discussion about insufficient rudder size and I tend to agree. You can do a search on that. I've added 55lbs lead to my daggerboard and Delevi has a custom board with even more weight. I'm convinced that my modest amount of weight improves things noticeably. The lead shot was about $1/lb. I've even run portions of races with no ballast and 12+ knots of wind. I've also added running backstays to take the sag out of the forestay when the wind comes up.

I've thought about whether I should have gotten a Mac if I want to race but I would have probably made the same decision after having it for over a year. We need something that's roomy and easily trailerable. If you can relax those requirements maybe another boat would have been better but I think once you learn more about the boat you'll be happier.

I wonder if your professional instructor gave up too easy. It would be easy to blame the boat completely, that way he's not at fault.

Next week we'll be racing at Lake of the Woods for a week. We may not do well but we'll be comfortable!

[Craig LaForce]

What headsail do you have? Pointing should be best with a 100% jib.
Balance your rig. Too much mast rake is the typical problem, which makes the boat round up into the wind in brisk winds, and requires too much rudder to steer straight under normal conditions, slowing the boat.
If the sailplan is being overpowered, you can let down the traveller and tighten the outhaul. Then reef if still overpowered. Might want another reef point on your main if you want good ability to shift gears for higher winds.


The M should be a fine sailing boat and should point very well if set up and handled properly.


Your pro sounds lacking. It's a poor sailor that blames the boat for his lack of skill. The X and the M are perhaps less forgiving of errors in setup and handling than a heavier keel boat, but they can still perform, and you might find that the little extra effort will help hone your skills and force a higher level of understanding than with a traditional boat.

[Scott]

He basically told me to get rid of the boat and buy a real sail boat.

I say get rid of the instructor and get a real one.

If you are not too experienced and are sailing in 15 mph+ winds with all your laundry up you are undoubtedly overpowering the boat.

In that kind of wind even reefed down tight we exceed 7 knots pointed tight into the wind.

[RandyMoon]

Something is not set right on your boat. I was out all this morning running in 12 to 15 mile per hour winds and ran every point of sail I could and was getting great performance close hauled at 15 degrees lean. I have all stock equipment and have had no performance problems. I'd say whoever rigged your boat didn't get it setup right.

[Radonic]

Thanks for your recommendations and encouragement. Especially to Bald...2000 for all the good advice. I will try all these things, and especially check my mast rack.

I was away trailering, and noticed that my spreaders were not straight or parallel to the deck. So upon my return, I tightened the upper shroud connected to one side of the spreader. It did not straighten my spreaders, but since then I think I have had more of these problems described in the first post than before.

Thanks

Ed

[Night Sailor]

Totallly agree with Baldbaby and others. It can't be the boat. It's got to be the setup of the rigging or sailplan.
Mast rake is critical and too much causes the problems you describe in any wind strength but gets stronger as the wind does. Being overpowered to boot, could be a nightmare of frustration.
I suggest as little as 3 degrees if you have enough turnbuckle to do it. Then you can trim sail to balance the boat where the rudder is easy and effective.
Oh yes, fire that instructor. He's highly biased and looking for an easy solution at your expense.

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

I've never sailed an M so can't speak first hand and I hear the balance issue is not as critical on an M. But both the X and the M have a narrow daggerboard to prevent leeway. In addition to what Baldbaby said about keeping speed up, the balance of the sailplan is very important on my boat. Once the wind picks up, you have to fly some amount of headsail to balance the main, otherwise you can get bad stalls. You can also use the motor as a third rudder in certain situations to resist stalling (although it creates more drag). Anyway, I agree with the other posters, this boat is more challenging than some, there are a few new things to learn if you come from a keelboat environment like I did. But once you learn them, it is a great boat. I've owned more than a half dozen boats and my 26X is by far the best and will probably be the only one I ever need (unless I go world cruising one day).

As far as racing goes, I'm sure you can get your boat to sail properly but it will likely never point as well as a keelboat, especially not a racing keelboat. However, these flat bottom boats can seriously make up lost ground when running downwind. When you pull your board up and skate (crab) across the water, you can do things that keelboats cannot (and go faster too). If I had my boat set up for racing (not full of valuable cruising gear), I might not fill the ballast so much while sailing. I'll bet you can get it up on a plane running with a spinnaker, with empty ballast in stiff winds. Of course, you will want some crew on board to help right it should you broach. I'm certainly not recommending this for when you are learning the boat, but I'd be curious if anyone has tried it..especially in a race.

[Richard O'Brien]

Ryan (Windquest) and I raced my boat Wednesday. The wind was very high? 30-40 mph I imagine. One boat was dismasted, One Macgregor D went to 90 degrees, most boats saw 45 degrees, and I found myself standing on the opposite side staring down at a rubrail for the first time.
It was a pretty wild race for all involved. The M did fine, and behaved remarkably well with a (non-factory) reefed main, and a 150 genoa. You have to start carefully, and cannot turn suddenly upwind at the start like the other boats. You will stall and float unkindly backwards because you've lost your momentum. These boats are sensitive, and can move,but don't wrestle with them once they get a groove. Ryan did a suberb job of hanging the boom about 45 degrees to the centerline. Most boats held a tighter boom , but this did not work for the M. Once going we were SAILING. We did not come in last, finishing slightly ahead of a Catalina 25. With larger Idasailor rudders, and a better traveler, I hope to do better soon. Our worst point of sail was downwind.Sorry Dmitri
they won't let us pull our daggerboards. I really need to make a genoa pole. I wonder if they're legal without the spinnaker 12 pt. penalty?? I hope we'll do better this week. My god, this is insane fun!

[delevi]

Ed,

I agree with all to make sure your rig is tuned right. I would also try changing sail trim to reflect the new course you paln to take. There are times when the sails will overpower the rudders, but you can still steer wit the sails, which will then allow your rudders to kick back in. They do stall easily, which is why I ordered larger ones with a bettef foil shape. The problem you describe, however, sounds extreme. These boats have the quirks and are a challange to learn, but it sounds like something is wrong. If your dealer is a reputable one, try going back to him to get your rig checked. If not, take it to a rigging shop. Of course, if you are experienced with this yourself, you can make the rake adjustment, make sure your shrouds are tight and your mast is straight (very important.) You will need to stand or lay under the mast and sight up the track. If your shroud tension is not equal on both sides, the mast will point to one side, which can dramatically affect your performance. Hope this helps.

Ryan,

Sounds like a wild race. Looks like you also ordered large rudders from Joel??? What size did you get?

Leon

[delevi]

Ed,

A couple more things:
Did you make sure to pull your rudders all the way down with the other end of the rudder line so that they're perpendicular to the transom and the stopper touches, then cleat them off tightly? If not, this would clearly be your problem. If the rudders are allowed to kick up part way from the water pressure of forward motion, you won't have any control. I emailed you about your question on my weighted keel & larger rudders, but before spending a bunch of money, try all the suggestions on this thread. Also, reef early. 15 knts is a good time to reef the main. If you have two reef points, the first reef would be good for 15 knts, and the second at around 20+ If you have only one, reef at 15 knts anyway. Also, you can furl in some headsail. The boat sails much better, faster and more controlable with less sail area when the breeze picks up, especially upwind. Write back on your progress and hang in there. I had some problems when I first got my M. Thanks to the helpful advice of the good people of this forum, I was able to overcome most of them. Did have to spend a few bucks and a bunch of time, but that comes with the territory.

Leon

[Richard O'Brien]

Radonic, Some further comments, because I've done the same thing at a start, and am now on only my 4th race. maybe we can share notes: Snuggle up to that RC boat, and get that course off the chalk board as soon as possible. Determine the best angle of the wind, as the orange penant is never at a true right angle to the wind. Get on that side and keep cruising back and forth along that side. You must have some speed going, so if you need to go slightly downwind away from the start line, do it before the start . The other boats can steal your wind at the crowded start, and it may be better to stay away from them?

[baldbaby2000]

Good starts are tricky. Buoy room doesn't apply at the start and anyone can luff anyone else up as much as they want. Things are different on the race course. One given though is that starboard still has the right of way. You may want to just pick a boat that knows what they're doing an follow them. This may not always work because of all the manuevering that goes on. A lot of times there are a lot of boats fighting for a good start position and they mess each other up only to watch someone who was behind them with good speed pass them all!

[normo]

My experience is that the 26X (probably the M also) does not sail well to windward compared to most any conventional sailboat so lower your expectations considerably. Having said that, these boats are a whole lot better than you your recent experience. The items noted above: changing mast rake, trimming the sails so you never have excessive rudder and keeping the boat moving are the big hitters but the boat will always be in the mid 300 PHRF class. Don't give up on the Mac until you see this through.

Fire your instructor and search for an experienced Mac owner to show you the ropes. With 60K invested consider planning a mini vacation and flying to some location where an experienced M owner can spend a day or two with you. There are several on this forum that would be great instructors.