Early M retro fit

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

Terry,

I know you love your boat, as we all do, and feel the design you picked is best. The early M design is a great layout for 2 and even for more when day tripping, very open and spacious. I'm glad it works for you. That is no reason not to consider other options and support someone who it doesn't work for. It wouldn't work for me and since he asked it obviously dosn't work for 'Billfish' either. I'm not bashing your boat, I'm simply pointing out very valid reasons why someone might want something different.

I have no doubt that you can sit at your table and cook at the same time. That's not my point at all. Have 3 kids sit at you table (as I do) and then cook as well. It can't be done in the early version. Anyone sitting at the table on the starboard side (other than the cook), completely blocks the galley. This is a valid reason why I (and others) would not want your layout. In an X or a late model M you can seat 4 people at the table and the cook can still walk in front of and work at the galley.

I also do not dispute that the galley can be stood in front of, of course you have to remove the starboard half of the table to do this. With the full table in place you either have to sit on the staboard side or kneel half on the staboard seat to cook. Now as you say the port half of the table has become a galley extension. Great!, but you now have no table at all for people to sit at and do other things while the cook cooks.

"Mom, I have to go to the head", now you have to crawl over the port seat or take down the port side table half (which the cook was using as a galley extension). Cooking for us means the galley is in use 30-40 minutes each meal, (even more for after the meal for cleanup). I could never have the path to the head and the foredeck hatch obstructed for this time. That means I can't have either half of the table up while cooking.

This picture illustrates this all very well.




I looked long and hard at the early M layout and for my family of 5 and there is no way the boat would work for the long term cruising we do. My family has spent close to 100 days on board over the last 6 and a bit years. I know very well what type of spaces it takes to make this possible. Our galley is in use for 3 meals a day, day after day. The galley on the early M would not work for this kind of application. During cooking we need the full table in place for people seated there yet have to have unobstructed access to the galley for the cook, and access through the boat to the bow and head.

[Terry]

Duane:
My apologies for sounding so turt.
The "knee on the seat" comment was originally coined a year ago by someone for the sole purpose of pressing hot buttons. To see it rear its ugly head again went under my fingernails like bamboo shoots. Hence my response.
You do make very valid points regarding family use, the X wins hands down bar none when it comes to family use, I have no argument with that as there simply are none, I have been on a freinds X and could instantly see the family oriented benefits. I also could not even begin to imagine how a family like yours could even begin to adapt to any of the M configurations especially given the small cockpit where everyone want to be during the cruise. Therefore I can empathise with your needs readily.
As for the early M being a couples boat, well I am in no position to dispute that because my wife and I are a (childless) couple and use the boat exclusively in that fashion. Also it is the starboard table piece that serves as the counter extension, the port section would only block forward passage, but that is a moot point since the stove in our M serves more as decor to authenticate the galley than it does for anything else.
My first experience with it had me relegate it to boiling water for coffee & tea after waiting a gazillion years to even boil the water. I immediately went out and got coleman style Woods stove with burner & hot plate plus a sport B-B-Q to do any cooking on in the cockpit, and yes even eating is done there too.
So in my case galley or dinette placement makes no nevermind I use niether. Actually Duane we only used those facilities the first few years, once we discovered marinas and the accompanying conveniences we never looked back, just love those restaurants they have, and showers too.
Yes I love my boat as much as anyone else loves theirs but I do not think the design is best but only that it suits the use my wife and I put it to. It is not better, only different. What I take exception too are unfounded claims that I know from experience are simply not true. I cannot imagine you can cook a three couse meal for your large family on that goofy orgio stove, surely you also make use of other cooking facilities given your situation. I know if I was in your place the kids would be set adrift in the dinghy until the meal was served. I simply do not subscribe to some of the arguments that are put forth given what my experiences are with reality, real world experiences (something you should be very well aquainted with given your experience) are what I base mine on.
As for my position on showers, well I challenge anyone to beat the facilities available at marinas for a few quarters of change, the cost benefit ratio is simply unbeatable. But then you are not as receptive to marinas as I am, I love Poets Cove but I can still remember your take on it. As they say Duane different strokes for different folks, whatever floats your boat.
Again my sincere apologies for sounding offensive in my previous post, it was a knee jerk reaction to the bamboo shoots under my fingernails.

[pokerrick1]

It's OK Terry - - - we all know you're Canadian

Rick

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

Now I don't know that I would claim our meals are gormet, but they are pretty darn good and 80% of the time we cook only on the Origo. You can do a lot with two burners. It is everybit as good as our two burner camp stove we use camping. We do also have a kettle BBQ out back on the transom for steaks, burgers, and dogs. It's mainly used for some dinner meats, the rest is all cooked inside on the two burner Origo. One great addition I made was a griddle top for the Origo. It is a standard coleman stove aluminum griddle cut down just a bit to fit securely on the Origo stove. It get's a lot of breakfast time use and even the occasional lunch or dinner.

Our boys know how to stay out of the way during meal preparation (if not they get put to work). We've never needed to cast them adrift, but they are often encouraged to grab a radio and take the dinghy in for some shore time without us.

We do hit a restaurant on occasion, although lately we have prefered take out. It let's my wife and I go to the bar and relax without the kids while we wait for the food.

I also like marina showers (but don't forget to wear your flip flops). We were recently at Alderbrook Inn on Hood Canal and there you got a huge lockable private bathroom with sink, toilet and shower (unlimited use, no quarters required). I've also been to a few Canadian marina's where the showers require Loonies instead of quarters.

While I've seen some X's with showers installed I don't think I'll ever be putting one in my boat. We do have the Zodi and a sun shower which serve light duty cleaning and can be used for an occasional hair wash if we had to. Even so, we always schedule a swing through a marina ever second to fourth day. This get's the shower, as well as all the other consumables that need to be filled (or emptied as the case may be).

I'll still take Otter Bay over Poets Cove any day. It's a much more friendly and comfortable marina in my opinion. I don't need my boat sandwiched in and looked down on by the mega yacht crowd that show up at Poets Cove.

I still want to try Port Browning. What's your take on that marina?

It looks like we are staying south of the border this summer. We just set our itinerary and made the marina reservations for a 12 day trip in August (5 marina nights, the rest at parks).

[They Theirs]

I know you love your boat a whole lot more than anyone else, and were glad it’s a design that works for you and all the smaller crew. Were not bashing your boat, because your not able to see the comforts of lounge style seating, were just pointing out why adults prefer a more open cabin with lots of sofa seating and leg room, while avoiding the confines of a Classic-X dinette.

We have complete confidence in your ability to stand at your galley cooking for your clan. That’s not our point at all. You’re having so many kids sitting with you, or your wife, means that anyone seated on starboard, in that cramped dinette, (other than the cook who’s standing in front of the head door, cooking on that full time galley) is going to make you, or your wife, stand up and move somewhere to let them out, your side or her side the same. They’ll have to ask the cook to move over to get at that head. (That head seems to get more mealtime business, than “Hooter’s on Friday night) Most parents educate children to use the restroom prior to sitting down for meals. (Get out another bottle of GermX) The most valid reason most full size adults prefer the obvious comfort of open cabin lounge dining to the cramped, Classic-X dinette is…”elbow room”. … you cannot comfortably seat adults, other than kid size, together on either side of a small dinette.

PHOTO REVEALS ONLY “ONE” ADULT CAN SIT COMFORTABLY ON EACH SIDE OF THE TABLE, “TWO” ADULTS EACH SIDE CRAMPS SEATING AT A CLASSIC-X STYLE DINETTE.

We are not disputing your ability to collapse the dinette,


With that dinette table in place you’ll have to look beyond the short couch in front of the centerboard hump, the dinette is built over. Room in the aft birth makes a difficult entry with the very low access, to low for adults, but ok for children. Everyone knows the head completely blocks entry on one side of the aft birth with the Classic-X layout, and a small seat attached to the solid mount galley and center cabin support post, inhibits the port entrance. Adults or children attempting to sleep in the low aft birth is going to crawl in, and maybe over you or mom to get out, and use that head just inches from another sleeping, fortunately few adults choose to use the aft birth in the Classic-X layout.

PHOTO ILLUSTRATES THE LOW ACCESS TO THE AFT BIRTH AND CLOSE PROXIMITY OF THE HEAD AND GALLEY ON THE CLASSIC-X LAYOUT.


Many of us looked long and hard at the Classic-X type layout before making a better choice. For our use, and we’ve owned several boats over many years, the luxury of an open cabin layout with lounge seating, and leg room enough to satisfy everyone but an old curmudgeon, is the most suitable. Having owned several campers, we know the down side of seating in a small dinette. The fixed galley on the Classic-X would not work for our boating needs, any more than guests and crew seated comfortably in the cockpit or lounging in the cabin would want to look at the head in the cabin entrance, let alone the nonstop business you describe during your meals.

PHOTO FROM THE COCKPIT LOOKS DIRECTLY IN AT THE HEAD WITH THE GALLEY ACROSS, SMALL DINETTE SEATING NEXT TO THE HEAD.


Everyone loves the wide-open comforts the early M cabin layout affords.

PHOTO ILLUSTRATES TABLE AND TINTED POLYCARBONATE LENS STORAGE AFT.


15 SECONDS…EASY TABLE SET UP/DOWN OR STOWED AFT




PHOTO EXHIBITS AN ALTERNATE SMALL TABLE DESIGN CREATED FOR AN EARLY M


[mod] Picture removed at request of Board Member [/mod]

[kmclemore]

PHOTO REVEALS ONLY “ONE” ADULT CAN SIT COMFORTABLY ON EACH SIDE OF THE TABLE, “TWO” ADULTS EACH SIDE CRAMPS SEATING AT A CLASSIC-X STYLE DINETTE.

(Photo deleted)

That photo doesn't 'reveal' a d*mned thing, TT.

That happens to be my wife and I on what turned out to be a quiet evening with just the two of us on board, and my fat bottom sitting smack in the middle of the dinette seat. However, my two sons joined us for the rest of that trip - the older one is about 5'10" - and there's was plenty of room for all 4 of us.

----------------------------------
And a point of posting courtesy:

Pease don't take my personal pictures and put them on your Photobucket, and then use them for your own purposes without asking, particularly when they are pictures of my family... That's just really bad form, TT, and bloody rude. Please ask me first, and even then, just use them from their original source.

My thanks to the moderator for removing the photo.

[kziadie]

A point that seems to be missed is that not everyone has the Origio alcohol stove which I agree is not very efficient. I have a Kenyon butane stove and it works very effectively for me. The only time I fire up the BBQ is for grilling, cooking multiple dishes and to use as an oven.

As far as the shower is concerned, I am fully aware that it is a pipe dream in an M... it is only a wish of my family. I actually prefer to anchor out rather than stay in a marina because it is generally cooler in the summer months. I am fortunate here in the Chesapeake that there are so many protected and beautiful anchorages that I try to go somewhere else every time I am out. I realize that other areas may not be as conducive to this.

Kelly

[Andy26M]

We've all been over the various viewpoints of the different boat layouts many times:

Let's just be glad that there are several to choose from and enjoy all the incredibly ingenious ways that each member or family makes these versatile boats their own!!

The one thing we can probably all agree on is that you can't get it "all" in a 26 foot boat (storage, seating, galley, head, shower, entertainment center, jacuzzi, dancefloor, etc. etc. etc.) - but you sure can try!

- Andy

[Andy26M]

Oh - and getting back to the original question -

I, too, have the later 2004 layout and have been on a 2006 model with the sliding galley. I personally think that doing a "retrofit" of the 2004 to the newer layout is going to be in the "too hard" category because of the differences in the floor liner molding.

What would probably work, is to create a cooktop area similar to the pictures above where wooden frames were used to raise a seat, but instead raise it to galley-counter level and set it to hold whatever stove you prefer. When in use, you put it in place of one of the aft cushions, when not in use you replace the cushion. This is not going to fully replicate the "dinette" setup, but it at least lets the cook work inside while others sit at the table.

I have a "Chuck Box" for camping that is on my "someday" project list to build a mount for inside my 26M for extended cruising. A 2-burner stove could fit comfortably on top of the box, plus you can close the lid of the box over it to have a small chart table:

http://www.cabelas.com/vprod-1/0003839.shtml

YMMV as they say ...

- Andy

[They Theirs]

Kev …thank you for sharing your views,
but we’ve been dismayed by your verbal fury?

Kev wrote:
*That photo doesn't 'reveal' a d*mned thing…….
And………
· That happens to be my wife and I on what turned out to be a quiet evening with just the two of us on board,
· and my fat bottom sitting smack in the middle of the dinette seat.

Were even more perplexed with your sudden alarm with the size of your backside. (Unseen in the photo illustrating two adults seated comfortably in a Classic-X dinette). Your having posted a photo of your carpentry skill in replacing the original Classic-X dinette table after it’s caving-in, increased the worth of your efforts with your posting of this photo showing your replacement table in use. I feel some pain, disappointment and loss of composure in you’re writing of a previously posted for the world photo, displaying yourself and your lovely wifey, comfortably seated at the well made replacement table. (Term “wifey” coined by Kev for ones spouse)

Honoring your request for a courtesy in removing you and yours identity’s


SIDEBAR: The photobucket belongs to thousands; the world views and uses them.

!	DLT:
	Removed photo, per clear indication that the "OWNER" of it doesn't want it posted

[DLT]

Because you have access to something does not give you the right to use it as you see fit. You might want to have a discussion with a Copyright defense attorney...

!	DLT:
	On EDIT: Apparently, I can't spell...

[kmclemore]

Because you have access to something does not give you the right to use it as you see fit. You might want to have a discussion with a Copyright defense attorney...

Precisely. Thanks, DLT.

TT, if I want to post pics of my wife and I, then I have that right. That does *not* give you the right to take those photos, copy them to your own personal Photobucket account (not a public venue) and then use them for your own purposes. And even if you *did* find some way to legally support your argument, which I doubt, it's just in bloody bad taste.

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

Never fear Kevin, I'm sure most just ignore anything TT posts, I certainly do. His posts are always clearly written to incite argument and rarely ever have any useful content. He always cites examples from other peoples boats, never his own, I've decided he doesn't even have one. You'd think he would at least learn how to spell "berth".

I also find it easy to seat 4 at a X dinette, even adults. I've had 7 adults comfortably seated below on my X. I'm sure this can easily be done as well on either version of the M.

[Terry]

I also find it easy to seat 4 at a X dinette, even adults. It's actually wider than the late model M dinette seats. I've had 7 adults comfortably seated below on my X. I'm sure this can easily be done as well on either version of the M.

Don't be too sure Duane, the X is one thing but the new M is something else. I have been an on again off again hobby bodybuilder most of my life and carry the shoulders of 1-1/2 average guys. My wife and I had dinner with another couple aboard their X and all four of us comfortably spent the evening at the X dinette. I don't recall any elbow issues. There is no way we could do that on the new M as it simply is not wide enough, I have sat at one and I take up the whole seat, shoulderwise that is cause I don't have a fat a$$.

As for the M stove, another consideration to keep in mind, I did not realize you had two burners, my M has only one goofy orgio, not sure what the new M's carry but I was going under the assumption you prepared a gourmet meal on one burner. As for Browning, have not been there yet but seem to remember reading somewhere that new owners have invested some $$ and it is new & improved, I'll have to make a stop there soon to check it out.

We currently are making plans for the San Juans with the stronger Can $ not to mention Friday harbour being one of our favourite stops, just gotta love that place, lots to see and do. After that we'll head for Blakley on your recommendation in a previous thread then check out Rosario.
As for mega yacht crowd at Poets I think Roche has that beat. We also visited Garrison bay and saw the epitomy of the downside to capitalism with all the structures gone. Otter bay has ferry traffic so we avoid that otherwise I will have more than a ferry to argue with. Ganges is another favourite, like Friday it has lots to do and see.

We still do the odd anchor out at places like Sucia as it is a great stop over from point Roberts when heading either direction within the islands. I too like the idea of alternating marinas & anchoring with a stronger lean to marinas as we are on vacation and that means no cooking & cleaning. Still like the original M over the new one though and still think Roger caved in to the dinette demand, unfortunately there is only one X dinette and it is on the X not the M.

Cheers Duane
No hard feelings

[Boblee]

Crikey after well over a year on here I have never seen the ill feeling generated by this thread and am at an absolute loss to understand what the problem is but then I am an Aussie and it is our way to have a dig.
We are new to the boating scene but have travelled in a camper trailer for the past five years.
During that time we have seen all methods of accomplishing travellers goals, from tents to Swagman RV's ($300,000 + Aus) and while some of those travellers may have liked something different most were doing it the way it was best for them and loving it but at least they were/are all out there doing it NOW.
What I can't understand is why anyone would get excited or so possesive about different models of Macs, of course different models won't appeal to different people for hugely different reasons but that doesn't mean one is better for everyone.
When we first looked at a Mac we looked at an 98X and I liked it (the design) but some of the mods didn't suit and my wife hated the sleeping room as well as yachts in general.
We looked at the pictures of the 04 M and for OUR purposes the galley didn't suit but the rear berth space is higher.
The later M (06) which we eventually purchased as a bareboat suits me and the way I want to use it and I was/am able to mold it to suit what WE want.
My wife now tolerates travelling with the motor but still goes into trauma when the sail goes up but does have the occasional less stressfull day now LOL.
My point to the above rambling is that very few boats and mods will suit everyone and their circumstances but the beauty of this discussion forum is that we can exchange ideas to show or give hints on how to improve each others boats.
This won't happen though if members are going to take things said personally.
My boat is slowly developing into just what we need to travel in our own unique way but will never be perfect and certainly wouldn't suit probably the majority on here.
Personally I would prefer a Macman 28 which is just a bigger tougher (better?) version of the Macgregor 26X but that would also mean slight restrictions on launching and a bigger tow vehicle not to mention the extra dollars.
IMHO Macgregors of all models are fantastic and while some would like heaps of options, that would destroy the concept, especially for me as even if it had everything I would still want to modify it or make my own.
Crikey if there is something you do/don't like on a particular model just modify it or adapt/live with it, I guarantee no model will suit everybody or completely suit anybody.