alcohol or propane stove?

[MD Dunaway]

Using propane outside maybe? But no propane inside the boat! Accidents with it are pretty rare but catastrophic. Mike

[Kelly Hanson East]

Little bit of rehash and summary
Stove choices

1 Propane - acceptable with strict engineering and use controls.
2 Alcohol stoves - safer fuel, still need strict controls
3 Wallis - great for the long term/cold weather cruiser.

Please note - neither propane NOR alcohol should be stored below. Ethyl alcohol actually has almost twice the explosive mixture range of propane, although a much higher flashpoint (but still only 13C) so the vapour is more likely to be present in explosive quantities than propane. The propane tank is a safer form factor than a consumer bottle of ethanol, especially if you throw in carelessly in the bilge.

Ive used propane bottles for 40 years..in the last couple of years, Ive had two valve failures from older, but not ancient. propane cylinders - both emptied their contents in a few minutes. This added a final rule to my propane use...only brand new bottles each season. Each one goes into a baggie and is stored in the fuel locker. I consume 2 in one week at anchor with crew of 5. Trying to save at most 7 USD on propane by refilling, using old bottles, or other tricks is a false economy in the face of safety. I bring the Magma ashore in winter and use the old bottles for grilling in the back yard off season, in the safer backyard environment.

I only use any stove at anchor or dock. These boats are not equipped with galleys suitable for underway cooking, unless you have done major mods.

[Paul S]

We went with the built in origo alcohol stove.

Something confuses me.. not just here.. but everywhere..people complaining about prices and people complaining about products not being made well. Well you can't have both. The origo stove is made extremely well, simple, great engineering (ie simple, reliable, durable), great warranty, long strong history of top quality products, and safe (can't go BOOM). This comes at a (what I consider reasonable) price. You want quality, you have to pay for it.

To me, what I look for in a system on a boat is - the 'best' period. Simplest, most reliable, durable, and SAFE. You can't beat the origo.

I searched around the internet, and found the Origo (forget where) significanly less expensive than West and the normal outlets.

It more than satisfies our needs for a galley stove. Sure it doesn't heat a pot of water as fast as other fuels, but when did sailors become in a rush to eat! I will trade an extra 5 minutes to boil water for a safe, reliable, durable system. Maybe it is just me. I use thick aluminum bottom pots and pans, once they get up to cooking temp, they stay hot and cook as well as any stove I have ever used.

Of course , that said, we do have propane on our new boat, with very good safety features (tank vented overboard, shut off solenoid linked to the burner sensors directly, etc). It sure is nice! Way overkill for a Mac IMO, but if you can do it, and want to properly install it, go for it. I wouldn't, in my wildest dreams, use a stove that uses the 1# containers below deck. That's just me. the 1# tanks stay out of the cabin in our boat.

With all stoves, watch out for CO - stay well vented and get a CO alarm!

[opie]

bastonjock,

I've seen the complaint about alcohol soot before here, however, when I use my Origo stove with Home Depot denatured alcohol I can wipe a white glove on the pot bottom afterwards and get no soot at all....
What particular brand and type of fuel are you using so we all can avoid it?

[Paul S]

been through 4 gallons of denatured alcohol (from home depot or Lowes). Not a speck of soot. No smell. nothing.

[Don T]

Hello,
IIRC, there are alcohol molecules that are heavier than air and those that are lighter. Please make sure the alcohol you are using is of the lofty variety. Naturally, alcohol is not under pressure but we are concerned with safety here, right?

[KayakDan]

Propane can be used safely,but because of the properties,and danger of leaks inside a boat,it has to be handled with a lot of respect. I did extensive research before installing a system on our boat. There are a number of safety features required for the install,and in the end,when done properly,it isn't cheap,but is certainly convenient.
Propane control panel-monitors the system pressure,and operates the solenoid
Solenoid -wired to control panel for manual shutoff from inside the boat ( I still shut the valve on the tank as well),as well as automatic shutoff when the detector senses fumes( very sensitive,as bug spray will set it off!)
pressure guage-to do leak down pressure test for system
gas detector-wired to monitor system,to detect leaks-mounted close to the floor,in the stove area.
As an added precaution we always bleed down the system,by shutting off the solenoid and letting the flame die out. This elimenates having gas lines left under pressure inside the boat,when not in use.
http://macgregorsailors.com/modt/index.php?view=1198
http://macgregorsailors.com/modt/index.php?view=1199
The system we installed with 2 burner ss stove,and aluminum slim line tank,with ss mount bracket ended up in the $1k range. Expensive-absolutely! But as safe as I can make it,and a nice convenience on the boat. If you go the propane route-don't scrimp. There are no small propane accidents on boats.

[Kelly Hanson East]

Im not aware of any stove fuel other than ethanol (aka grain alcohol, ethyl alcohol, ethyl hydrate, absolute alcohol) used in alcohol stoves.

The density of the liquid is less than water, but that isnt relevant, since it mixes in all proportions with water.

Its Molecular mass is roughly 46 amu, which is larger than the 'mean molecular mass of air' (28 amu) so ethanol vapour will sink into your bilge and collect just like propane.

I would much rather be on a boat with a properly installed propane system than a careless user of ethanol stove. On the other hand, when a friend of mine opened his locker and showed me the rows of propane cylinders stored below decks....I politely excused myself for the rest of the evening a few minutes later.....

On edit - I got the mean MW of air wrong, its about 30 amu....same conclusions...

[Gypsy]

Our Cabin Cruiser came with a one burner alcohol stove , and we have enjoyed using it for the last
7 years.

When we started outfitting our MacGregor , we decided to go with propane for two reasons.

First was price , a propane stove is sooo much cheaper .

Second was fuel availability . Since Meth has become a popular drug , its hard to find and they limit the quanties in some places .

Propane is everywhere ! We bought a two burner propane and plan to build it in . We also plan to attach it to a large bottle (20 gallon ? )

We will miss our little alcohol stove , it was nice to move it outside and make coffee on hot mornings. They also just cook good , with no unpleasant odors.

[Paul S]

Our Cabin Cruiser came with a one burner alcohol stove , and we have enjoyed using it for the last
7 years.

When we started outfitting our MacGregor , we decided to go with propane for two reasons.

First was price , a propane stove is sooo much cheaper .

Second was fuel availability . Since Meth has become a popular drug , its hard to find and they limit the quanties in some places .

Propane is everywhere ! We bought a two burner propane and plan to build it in . We also plan to attach it to a large bottle (20 gallon ? )

We will miss our little alcohol stove , it was nice to move it outside and make coffee on hot mornings. They also just cook good , with no unpleasant odors.

You might want to second guess the 20#. Our new boat has a 20#. The previous owner of our new boat told me he would have chosen, in retrospect, to get 2 smaller tanks than one big one. Once he had to get the tank filled, and where he was, the closest propane fill was a few miles away. Think how heavy a filled tank will be after huffing it for a couple or more miles.

I too like the propane far better than alcohol, but I would still use alcohol on the Mac, at least for the way we use our Mac (keeping with the KISS philosophy). But we are pretty spoiled on the new boat with the propane 2 burners, oven and broiler unit! Not sure how much cheaper a propane stove is. the one on our new boat was $6,000 alone. So a $300 alcohol stove looks pretty thrifty to me!

Just keep that propane tank out side and everything will be OK

[c130king]

Not sure how much cheaper a propane stove is. the one on our new boat was $6,000 alone. So a $300 alcohol stove looks pretty thrifty to me!

Paul,

Don't forget the original post was about a "camp" stove. They typically run well under $100 for a two-burner that uses the small green propane bottles. A built in propane system is great but probably a little beyond realistic for many (most??) Mac owners.

Cheers,
Jim

[Paul S]

Not sure how much cheaper a propane stove is. the one on our new boat was $6,000 alone. So a $300 alcohol stove looks pretty thrifty to me!

Paul,

Don't forget the original post was about a "camp" stove. They typically run well under $100 for a two-burner that uses the small green propane bottles. A built in propane system is great but probably a little beyond realistic for many (most??) Mac owners.

Cheers,
Jim

Right, I just would never let the 1# propane bottles into the cabin of a Mac. risk is too great IMO. A plumbed in system like Dan's is one thing, but I won't store or use a disposable propane tank stove inside a Mac. Since I have owned the Mac, I have had 2 1# bottles (meant for the boat's grill) empty out in my garage on the shelf, one was new, one was half used. I can't imagine if that happened inside the boat. Too risky for my taste

[c130king]

I have been using these small propane bottles for 7 or 8 years (outdoors...camping...back porch). Never had one "mis-behave"...

But supposing one did leak in the cabin...how would one rectify that situation?

I would guess the first step would not be to look inside the dark bilge areas using a match/candle/zippo for light...

Jim

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

When talking about alcohol stoves there are two kinds, pressurized and non-pressurized. The Origo stoves are non-pressurised.

The liquid alcohol is in a stainless-steel canister where the fuel is absorbed and bound in a non-flammable wool material. You have to tip it over to spill the fuel. Because it is not under pressure it does not spill fuel like a pressurized alcohol stove or a propane / butane stove with the valve left open or fails. A metal flapper valve slides over the top opening in the canister. There may be a small amount of vapor that leaks as it evaporates if you leave the flapper open, but it is nothing compared to what happens if you leave a propane valve open. For longer term storage you place rubber gaskets between the canister and the flapper to reduce any evaporation. Remember even if there is vapor that escapes, you need an open flame to ignite it, as spark will not ignite the vapor.



Our 2 burner Origo has a cutting board insert that gives us extra counter space when not in use, and we've recently found a couple griddles that are the exact same size as the cutting board and work great in the stove. One is a heavy cast iron beast that holds heat for a long time and is great for breakfast cooking.



We store and fill the fuel out in the cockpit where any spillage is not an issue.

While the Origo is super simple and may seem over priced, I'm very glad that is what we have. If I was buying one from scratch I might consider the alcohol / electric Origo model. When in the marina on shore power you would have a great 2 burner electric stove.

http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?pat ... 2&id=60225



The only stove I covet is the Wallas for it's multi-function heater capability.

[Highlander]

Now if you installed a bilge blower & vents like I did you could breath easier

J