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bnix00 wrote: For trailering I ditched the bolts and replaced them with SS Clevis pins with hitch pin clips- no tools needed. I have also launched with the pins still in. Luckily it was nice weather and warm chesapeake water for my swim

That's a great idea. They are there for safety only and don't need to be torqued down or anything. Much better than a bolt. I may steal this idea.

I was lucky the dock was low and my son could get a wrench on the thing. I normally don't tighten them beyond a half turn once the nylon catches. Still too hard to turn by hand underwater.

The next logical progression of this thread is how do you hold rudders DOWN while underway. I've seen many use break away cleats to solve the problem. What I found works well is simply pulling the "down" line through the cleat and then wrapping around with the tail to create resistance. The wrap will allow tension to hold the rudder down. If the rudder hits something, it will pull through the tension of the wrap over it and lift up. Simple.



--Russ

I've always just tied off while in the water, when trailering I use a bungy cord to help secure it for a little extra peace of mind.

To keep our rudders UP:
- we pull up the rudder(s) and grab hold of it (in vertical position) as it drains the ? pounds if water, and with no weight on the rudder line it’s easier to tie the line to the stern horn cleat using a standard figure-8 knot, same as lines on a dock cleat.
- on the trailer we use the travel bolts through the brackets as well)

To keep our rudders DOWN:
- we tightened the pivot bolts on the rudder brackets, just snugged them up enough to hold the rudders in the down position on their own, up to about 6-8 knots.
- we do not tie the rudder lines at all (the line hang loose, but is threaded once through the stern horn cleat), if we hit something the rudders swing back and up, the tension of running over a crab-pot line will release the rudders.
- even snugged up a bit, they still raise and lower very easy (I’ve been on many other Mac’s and the tension still seems to be similar)
- of course in hard heavy seas I sometimes need to secure the rudder lines down.

bnix00 wrote:I have had no issues with a cleat hitch on the water. I do like the idea of tying a loop to pull over the cleat when raising the rudders. For trailering I ditched the bolts and replaced them with SS Clevis pins with hitch pin clips- no tools needed. I have also launched with the pins still in. Luckily it was nice weather and warm chesapeake water for my swim

Brian, great idea! Not sure why i didn't think of that sooner.

-Robert

Yeah, I use bolts with clevis pins to keep the rudders in the "up" position, too.
In the "down" position: I use the cleats half of the time, when I know for sure that the water is deep enough. The other possibility that I like is, take the rope used for pulling them out of the water, make a loop, and insert that loop under the cleat. Takes about 5 seconds to thread it right. The rudders are in the down position, but any serious impact pulls the loop from under the cleat and frees the rudders.

The poor man's locked cleat.

March wrote: The other possibility that I like is, take the rope used for pulling them out of the water, make a loop, and insert that loop under the cleat. Takes about 5 seconds to thread it right. The rudders are in the down position, but any serious impact pulls the loop from under the cleat and frees the rudders.

The poor man's locked cleat.

Yup

For tie-down I use auto-releasing cleats from Duckworks:

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/hardware/cl ... /index.htm

Obelix

Obelix wrote:For tie-down I use auto-releasing cleats from Duckworks:

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/hardware/cl ... /index.htm

Obelix

Obelix,

I'd like to look into these. Do you have a picture of the installation or can you take one at some point?

I have had no issues with a cleat hitch on the water. I do like the idea of tying a loop to pull over the cleat when raising the rudders.

I like this too and use it.

You can still use a single continuous line or splice in shockcord for the lower section, but tying loops for the up and down positions lets you skip cleating all together.

Paul I,

Since I got a the rudder tie-down line is routed differently then on your . As you can see, I also applied a 2x purchase to the pull-up line to make raising the rudders easier.
You see the cleat mounted on top, to the left of the up-line assembly. The only limitation for this cleat to work properly is the line size, you must change your tie-down line to a size 1/4" or smaller. I adjusted the release tension to a very light setting and those cleats saved me at least one new set of rudders. Sailing in Florida's normally thin waters, they are IMHO a must. On a the cleats would most likely work best, if installed parallel to your existing rudder cleats.



Obelix

Obelix wrote:Paul I,

Since I got a the rudder tie-down line is routed differently then on your . As you can see, I also applied a 2x purchase to the pull-up line to make raising the rudders easier.
You see the cleat mounted on top, to the left of the up-line assembly. The only limitation for this cleat to work properly is the line size, you must change your tie-down line to a size 1/4" or smaller. I adjusted the release tension to a very light setting and those cleats saved me at least one new set of rudders. Sailing in Florida's normally thin waters, they are IMHO a must. On a the cleats would most likely work best, if installed parallel to your existing rudder cleats.



Obelix

Thank you. Im gonna have to look into a pair of those. The price is certainly friendly enough.

Does anyone have a photo of this “loop” system onto the stern horn cleat?

My concern would be that:
- I hit rough water, or a boat wake
- the rudder bounces up (less tension on the rudder line with the loop system verses being made fast with tight figure-8 on cleat)
- the loop might fall off the horn cleat, causing the rudder to fall down onto the motor and gets damaged.

also:
Because the rudder cannot be secured to the rudder bracket as tight with the loop system, is there not more wear on the rudder from it bouncing against the rudder brackets?

Wind Chime wrote:Does anyone have a photo of this “loop” system onto the stern horn cleat?

My concern would be that:
- I hit rough water, or a boat wake
- the rudder bounces up (less tension on the rudder line with the loop system verses being made fast with tight figure-8 on cleat)
- the loop might fall off the horn cleat, causing the rudder to fall down onto the motor and gets damaged.

also:
Because the rudder cannot be secured to the rudder bracket as tight with the loop system, is there not more wear on the rudder from it bouncing against the rudder brackets?

None of this actually happens, at least never to me. The loop on my line is tied so that it just barely makes it over the edge of the horn when the rudder is fully up. The rudders can only move a fraction of an inch, and they don't even do that. The downward weight of the rudder itself is enough to prevent the loop from de-horning. Nothing bounces against the rudder brackets, even in rougher water.

Tomfoolery wrote:
Edit: And for a little snarky entertainment, walk down any dock, and look at all the messed up dock cleat rope piles. 20 times around the cleat (with no room left for the other boat that has to share the cleat). Interesting knots. Hitches that will likely slip with a large load. And feel superior that your simple, neat, efficient cleat hitch will hold against anything. And apply that to the rudder cleats.

Its funny you mention the wrapped up cleats on the docks. If you're looking to tie up multiple boats off the same cleat you use the spliced end on the cleat. If done properly either boat can leave without un-tying the other.

RussMT wrote:
I would say 95% of the boats at our marina have no idea how to use a cleat. I have driven my family crazy with this. to the chagrin of my wife, I have redone a few because it bugs me so much.

--Russ

I would agree 100% very few boats get tied off properly, but you're asking for a boat-load of trouble if you go around re-tying boats. Even boats of people I know I won't retie. If a boat you retied were to ever get loose guess who's liable for any and all damages as a result.

Wind Chime wrote:To keep our rudders UP:
- we pull up the rudder(s) and grab hold of it (in vertical position) as it drains the ? pounds if water, and with no weight on the rudder line it’s easier to tie the line to the stern horn cleat using a standard figure-8 knot, same as lines on a dock cleat.

Figure 8 and a cleat hitch are two very different things.

yukonbob wrote:Its funny you mention the wrapped up cleats on the docks. If you're looking to tie up multiple boats off the same cleat you use the spliced end on the cleat. If done properly either boat can leave without un-tying the other.

Do most people take their dock lines with them when they leave their slip?
I keep the spliced loop on my BOAT's cleat. I can remove it easily and put it back on when I return with all lengths properly adjusted. My slipmate takes his lines with him and has to readjust them each time he returns. Too much work.
Fortunately we don't share cleats, however my spring lines are tied to the floating dock frame, not a cleat.

--Russ