MacGregorSailors.com

Using your outboard doesn't count

BOAT wrote:That rounding up thing sounds like a bit of an issue – I hear about it a lot from X boat drivers. I do not get that on my M and can sail for many hours at 45 degrees over 6 knots – it never rounds up or experiences a serious weather helm.

dlandersson wrote:Using your outboard doesn't count

BOAT wrote:That rounding up thing sounds like a bit of an issue – I hear about it a lot from X boat drivers. I do not get that on my M and can sail for many hours at 45 degrees over 6 knots – it never rounds up or experiences a serious weather helm.

OOH OOH! I got the outboard movie for you guys! I got a sea of glass coming back from Avalon this time - it was so cool! 18.3 knots on the outboard!

click on link below to view video:

https://vimeo.com/227749454


The GPS said 18.3 when the camera panned this shot - 5400 RPM on the pedestal, and we were heavy with provisions from 5 days on the water. Hey! the battery charging is at 14.2 volts at that speed! That’s good, right?

As for the sailing at 45 degree stuff, it's extremely easy on this rig, I do not have an
explanation for the folks that are rounding up - the boat really should not round up unless
the rudders are out of the water? (Is that what's going on?)


Look at the horizon in this vid and you will see that indeed ‘boat’ is well at 45 degrees – the black tape on the wheel marks the dead center for the rudders and the auto pilot is only adding about a ¼ to 1/2 turn or 5 to 10 degree rudder to counter weather helm. The AP tells me how much rudder it's adding and it varies from 5 to 10 degrees I'm pointing as high as I can on the Genoa in the genoa track in a strong north wind going up the coast - I could point a little higher if I furled the genny and tacked it to the cabin top but I an only 2 miles from my destination so I was too lazy to do that.

click on link below to view video:

https://vimeo.com/176823065



The boat does not round up. I can put it over to 55 degrees and it does not round up.

I have talked to other M drivers like Highlander and he has the same experience I do at angles over 45 degrees - the boat is stable and tracks great.

BOAT wrote: The boat does not round up. I can put it over to 55 degrees and it does not round up.
I have talked to other M drivers like Highlander and he has the same experience I do at angles over 45 degrees - the boat is stable and tracks great.

I have heard that X's are slightly better at motor than M's, whereas M's are slighter better under sail than X's.

I just got back from a day out with a friend. Were in maybe a 12-18 knot wind, the main was completely luffed, and the helm was hard over to weather, and she still rounded up.
(The boat, not the friend.)

The X boat has a better interior too.

BOAT wrote:The X boat has a better interior too.

That, my friend, is a matter of personal opinion

I chose the because of its nicer interior. I realize you said “better”, but in my case, prettier was better.

Ray

True

BOAT wrote:The X boat has a better interior too.

DaveC426913 wrote:

BOAT wrote: The boat does not round up. I can put it over to 55 degrees and it does not round up.
I have talked to other M drivers like Highlander and he has the same experience I do at angles over 45 degrees - the boat is stable and tracks great.

I have heard that X's are slightly better at motor than M's, whereas M's are slighter better under sail than X's.

I just got back from a day out with a friend. Were in maybe a 12-18 knot wind, the main was completely luffed, and the helm was hard over to weather, and she still rounded up.
(The boat, not the friend.)

May I suggest not enough foresail may of been causing the round ups or maybe too much rake on the mast, I have been out in much windier conditions and never suffered from round up, I normally get the opposite and she wants to turn down wind, thats a nasty habit and I have to furl the jib in a bit to get sail balance back

sailboatmike wrote: May I suggest not enough foresail may of been causing the round ups

I'm flying a 150 Genoa.

sailboatmike wrote:or maybe too much rake on the mast.

Yeah. I've never actually checked this.

But my backstay is pretty loose. (though I've never really checked it in a blow)

sailboatmike wrote:I normally get the opposite and she wants to turn down wind, thats a nasty habit

Yes, if I understand correctly, that's kind of the more dangerous of the possibilities. You want you boat to round up if things get out of hand.

On my 2000 X I used to unfurl my foresail all the way out to 150 when pointing and had to fight it to keep it from rounding up. I was out sailing with an extremely smart experienced sailor friend one day and he started playing my Jib. What we found out was that when pointing, MY boat likes the Jib furled to right about 100% and moved the lines to the cars on top of the cabin in the foremost position pulling the Jib down.
Logically you would think that with the 150 out it would push the boat away from the wind instead of causing it to round up but what is actually happening is that with the Jib past the mast it is moving the power back past the centerboard and pushing on the stern causing it to head up into the wind. Unless on a run now I almost never let out more that 110% of the Jib.

That's what works well on my X but unless your sails are worn exactly like mine and weight is distributed the same ect... you are gonna have to just play with your sail plan to find out what works for you.

skibuff wrote: Logically you would think that with the 150 out it would push the boat away from the wind instead of causing it to round up but what is actually happening is that with the Jib past the mast it is moving the power back past the centerboard and pushing on the stern causing it to head up into the wind.

Huh. You're right; I hadn't thought of that. I've been thinking of the jib only as pushing on the bow, but of course a 150 Genoa extends pretty much back to the cockpit.

BOAT wrote:The X boat has a better interior too.

We bought the X over the M because the Admiral liked the layout better. Head near the companionway rather than breaking up the central dining area, made the interior seem larger and less cramped.

We bought our X for many reasons, the layout of the interior was a major factor, amid howls of the "real sailors" with "real sail boats" that we shouldnt buy one because they couldnt sail and are a poor quality boat.

Alas the "Real sailors" with "Real Sail Boats" (who by the way had never set foot on one) came aboard and loved it, it was pride of the fleet at our old yacht club much to the dismay of they guy that owned the boat that used to be pride of the fleet but was moved over to make way for "The Mac".

At our new club (too much politics at the old one) they stir me up about having a Mac but are more about people getting out and enjoying not matter what boat you own, of course there is the keel boat owners that turn up their nose at the thought of a trailer boat, but we just laugh at them when they slip there boats and are stuck grinding off antifoul off for weeks on end.

We often just sit back on the balcony at the club and stare at our boat and just think how beautiful she is

Lots of wisdom on here...

Depending on where you sail, I recommend taking some courses. We are lucking the the UK in that we have RYA classes. I started with Level One and Two dingy, then Coastal Competent Crew and Day Skipper. For my money, RYA folks are the best there is anywhere. If you want to learn to sail in tidal waters, come to the Norfolk/Suffolk area. Check out a map of the currents in and around the confluence of the Orwell and Stour rivers.....this was my first cruising grounds.

DaveC426913 wrote:

skibuff wrote: Logically you would think that with the 150 out it would push the boat away from the wind instead of causing it to round up but what is actually happening is that with the Jib past the mast it is moving the power back past the centerboard and pushing on the stern causing it to head up into the wind.

Huh. You're right; I hadn't thought of that. I've been thinking of the jib only as pushing on the bow, but of course a 150 Genoa extends pretty much back to the cockpit.

Guys,

The second post I made on this "learning to sail" thing (post 16) was on the fact that a Genoa does NOT pull mostly on the front of the boat! SOME of the pull is on the lower part of the forestay, but most of the pull by the genoa is on the upper mast and the BACK OF THE BOAT where you cleat the genoa!

Remember? I said:

"The fact that your main is a 4:1 block should be a hint to you as to how much horsepower is really coming from that main sheet . . . . . . . The Genoa sheets are pulling directly on the back of the boat too . . . . . . . I suspect it would help the X boat to move more of that mainsheet “pull” towards the mast by transferring it with a boom Vang . . . . "

So I will ask again, Are You Using a Vang?? Is there any way to transfer more of the "pull" forward? (What I really think the X boat needs is the mainsheet moved forward, that would also eliminate the need for a backstay.)

BOAT wrote:

DaveC426913 wrote:

skibuff wrote: Logically you would think that with the 150 out it would push the boat away from the wind instead of causing it to round up but what is actually happening is that with the Jib past the mast it is moving the power back past the centerboard and pushing on the stern causing it to head up into the wind.

Huh. You're right; I hadn't thought of that. I've been thinking of the jib only as pushing on the bow, but of course a 150 Genoa extends pretty much back to the cockpit.

Guys,

The second post I made on this "learning to sail" thing (post 16) was on the fact that a Genoa does NOT pull mostly on the front of the boat! SOME of the pull is on the lower part of the forestay, but most of the pull by the genoa is on the upper mast and the BACK OF THE BOAT where you cleat the genoa!

Remember? I said:

"The fact that your main is a 4:1 block should be a hint to you as to how much horsepower is really coming from that main sheet . . . . . . . The Genoa sheets are pulling directly on the back of the boat too . . . . . . . I suspect it would help the X boat to move more of that mainsheet “pull” towards the mast by transferring it with a boom Vang . . . . "

Er. Sorry. I guess I didn't read that in a way that I saw an application to my situation.

So I will ask again, Are You Using a Vang?? Is there any way to transfer more of the "pull" forward? (What I really think the X boat needs is the mainsheet moved forward, that would also eliminate the need for a backstay.)

Yes, I use a vang. All it does is keep the boom from lifting too much.