MacGregorSailors.com

I think BOAT and I are confused as to how Kurz is taking on water. We have both posted pics of our M boats, so hopefully Kurz can detect anything that’s different with his. I’ve never flooded the motorwell while sailing, so BOAT definitely has tested more rigorously than I. Neither of us have had water in the bilge with the stock rudder configuration.

Seahouse implemented a sealing/bushing system at the top rudder post penetration, which Kurz indicated as the area he thought was leaking.

If we were Presbyterian, we’d form a committee about now...

I’d like to know why Kurz is getting water in his bilge - just because I hate an unsolved mystery. I’m satisfied that my boat is safe as I currently use it. One of the main things I checked during the test sail with the broker and P.O. was that the bilge remained dry in all areas that I could access.

I have sailed a lot of boats in every kind of condition the Pacific can deal out.

In regards to a "liability" mentioned that would make the M boat less safe than the X I can assure you that I would much rather have an M boat under my butt than an X boat when things get dicey - it's a much more sea worthy boat for several reasons besides just the permanent ballast, stiffer build, and deeper bottom, but that being said I can say that there has never been a report of the kind of leaking that kurz is commenting on except that I know that seahouse has done a lot of work on the rudders on the M model for various reasons.

Some people just don't like the M rudders - it's like the daggerboard - some prefer a swing keel, yet the swing keel itself is probably the number one cause of maintenance issues and malfunction in trailerable boats.

The M rudders, much like like the X boat was in the beginning, have been wrongly maligned as "cheap and flimsy" for reasons I have now learned were because of misuse more than poor design.

The brackets make people complain because they are too soft and bend - and if you let the rudder lines go loose the rudder will trail out of the bracket stop and could bend the bracket - this is true - but the design does not use the brackets to hold the rudders against the flow of water - the design uses the ROPES to hold the rudders against the flow of water. I myself completely eliminated the bending problem with my brackets by just making sure my rudders were completely and snugly in place firmly against the bracket stop and that eliminated all the bending issues.

I used to have the big washers on each end of the bolts and the plastic spacers and even the extra pulley to help lift the rudders and I have over time removes all that stuff and thrown it in the trash. Once I started using the rudders the CORRECT way I never had anymore issues with the brackets spreading. And leaks? Never. I have never had a leak from the shafts and I have never read or heard of anyone else ever having one until I read this post.

We did a club cruise with 5 or 6 adults on board, all in the cockpit or companion way for about 6 hours. The boat was a newish M, 2013 or so I think. At the end of the cruise the boat owners found a lot of water in the bilge. Enough that they pulled eveything out of the inside of the boat to get the water out and dry everything out. The thinking at the time was that all that weight at the back of the boat caused the rudder posts to spend a lot of time under water. Just wanted to let it be known that it has happened to other people, not just Kurtz.

darrenj wrote:We did a club cruise with 5 or 6 adults on board, all in the cockpit or companion way for about 6 hours. The boat was a newish M, 2013 or so I think. At the end of the cruise the boat owners found a lot of water in the bilge. Enough that they pulled eveything out of the inside of the boat to get the water out and dry everything out. The thinking at the time was that all that weight at the back of the boat caused the rudder posts to spend a lot of time under water. Just wanted to let it be known that it has happened to other people, not just Kurtz.

Not likely.

https://s6.postimg.cc/94zhjg0hd/1_C8_B4 ... B0_FAE.jpg

OK
If u beach the boat on a steep incline on high tide with full ballast , when the tide comes back in water will pour inside into the aft bilges thru the top of the steering rudder tubes that ur retractable rudder lines run thru until the boat starts to float . an easy fix for this which I will eventually do is remove the retractable rudder lines buy 2 plastic plug inserts then drill them out next drill size up from line size seal them in with 3M 52 into the top of the tubes , so now u only have a minimal clearance instead of a 7/8" hole around the line . I think this could also happen in a following sea with six crew members in the cockpit !
Just Sayin That,s All

J

Hmm, the club cruise was actually a training type cruise where a certified captain takes out a bunch of new Mac owners to go over safety with them. It is quite possible that they backed down the ramp, which is quite steep, and then sat there teaching for a while before actually pushing off the trailer. It is possible they got into the situation that Highlander describes. Or else on the way out. They have never had water like that before or after that trip and they have been in some big water.

The only place I have ever had water come into MY "newish M 2013" was thru the hole in the transom that the outboard steering arm comes out. The water came from my high pressure sprayer that I use to clean the boat.

The transom is pretty easy to see in the M boat - for you guys that have only crawled into that dark closet in the back of your X boat you call an 'aft berth' you should try looking in an M boat sometime - the aft berth is wide open and HUGE - you can see EVERYTHING:



There is no secret to where water is coming into an M boat - if there is any water getting in from the transom it's so easy to spot you would need to be an idiot to miss it - that's why I'm so confused with all these lame comments that start with "the thinking at the time" or "I'm wondering if" or "they think" - really? If the water is getting in it's easy to see right there! There is no secret.

When I found a trickle of water under the aft berth I just looked at the transom and saw the drip coming out where the steering arm connects to the outboard. I already was 100% sure it was leaking from the outboard arm but some of the water dripped on to the galley drain hose so I wrapped the hose with toilet paper and forced water into the galley drain thru hull until the sink and motor well filled with water just to make sure the hoses were okay. Back inside everything was dry as a bone - the toilet paper will show the slightest leak if there is one.

There are no leaks around the rudder shafts - I think you guys are just repeating the same rumors that I hear on sailing anarchy website and other places that make ridiculous statements about the MAC boats.

Anyone who has actually SEEN the transom inside an M boat would quickly realize what bullshit it is. Most people I notice who comment on this have never even been inside an M boat.

In the early production of the M19 the first of these boats did have the "tiny tank" which was later called the rudder dam. The M19 was the first sailboat to ever go fast, and it built up pressure around the rudders when going fast. We discovered the problem and the fix was easy! The small hole that is on the outside of the boat above the rudders is designed to allow excess water that gets built up by the pressure to escape. When we were going fast on the first boat with this problem, M19 no outside hole, the water came in very fast by the gallons! When the small hole was drilled, recommended by Roger MacGregor, no more water came in the boat. Keep this hole cleared of debris and do not seal it up! The other way water can get in the boat is when the ballast tank air vent plug is not in or not working correctly, sailing or rough water will splash the water out the air vent hole. Are there other ways? Sure, over time the rudder brackets themselves may need to be resealed, especially a boat that has been left in the water. The engine bolts can also need to be resealed, or any transducer you may have added. Also, check the engine well drain from the inside to be sure it is not leaking. Hope this helps!

bwygirl wrote:In the early production of the M19 the first of these boats did have the "tiny tank" which was later called the rudder dam. The M19 was the first sailboat to ever go fast, and it built up pressure around the rudders when going fast. We discovered the problem and the fix was easy! The small hole that is on the outside of the boat above the rudders is designed to allow excess water that gets built up by the pressure to escape. When we were going fast on the first boat with this problem, M19 no outside hole, the water came in very fast by the gallons! When the small hole was drilled, recommended by Roger MacGregor, no more water came in the boat. Keep this hole cleared of debris and do not seal it up! The other way water can get in the boat is when the ballast tank air vent plug is not in or not working correctly, sailing or rough water will splash the water out the air vent hole. Are there other ways? Sure, over time the rudder brackets themselves may need to be resealed, especially a boat that has been left in the water. The engine bolts can also need to be resealed, or any transducer you may have added. Also, check the engine well drain from the inside to be sure it is not leaking. Hope this helps!

Yes, that does make perfect sense to me - I know that the little holes are definitely important for venting. I suspect that folks who are having water issues are folks that have plugged up those holes! I found out the hard way that messing around with the original factory design just makes problems - the system works perfect as designed

People that are plugging up holes or trying to seal up places where the shaft enters the hull are just creating the leaking problem!

As for the ballast tank well I can totally vouch for that thing overflowing and being a major cause of flooding when sailing because I have a submarine hatch on my vent bowl because the valve on 'boat' is electric so I can operate from the helm.

I can clearly see the water trying to splash over the edge of the bowl when sailing and if that submarine hatch were not there I would defiantly flood the boat. You MUST have either a plug in that hole or a hatch over the bowl.

As for the rudders wells - if you don't mess with them, they don't leak.

BOAT wrote:The only place I have ever had water come into MY "newish M 2013" was thru the hole in the transom that the outboard steering arm comes out. The water came from my high pressure sprayer that I use to clean the boat.

The transom is pretty easy to see in the M boat - for you guys that have only crawled into that dark closet in the back of your X boat you call an 'aft berth' you should try looking in an M boat sometime - the aft berth is wide open and HUGE - you can see EVERYTHING:



There is no secret to where water is coming into an M boat - if there is any water getting in from the transom it's so easy to spot you would need to be an idiot to miss it - that's why I'm so confused with all these lame comments that start with "the thinking at the time" or "I'm wondering if" or "they think" - really? If the water is getting in it's easy to see right there! There is no secret.

When I found a trickle of water under the aft berth I just looked at the transom and saw the drip coming out where the steering arm connects to the outboard. I already was 100% sure it was leaking from the outboard arm but some of the water dripped on to the galley drain hose so I wrapped the hose with toilet paper and forced water into the galley drain thru hull until the sink and motor well filled with water just to make sure the hoses were okay. Back inside everything was dry as a bone - the toilet paper will show the slightest leak if there is one.

There are no leaks around the rudder shafts - I think you guys are just repeating the same rumors that I hear on sailing anarchy website and other places that make ridiculous statements about the MAC boats.

Anyone who has actually SEEN the transom inside an M boat would quickly realize what bullshit it is. Most people I notice who comment on this have never even been inside an M boat.

Mark
U R getting Arsenic on this subject ur opinion is correct if u have crew on board who go below & observe something happening , but when u discover something after the fact while solo sailing u have to investigate & study & make assumptions as best as u can & go from there I,ve had my boat 6yrs more than u & I,ll guarantee u with all the mods arches ,12 miles of wiring , bilge pumps , bilge blowers, cockpit shower,s , auto pilot , steering up-grades , rudder uphaul up-grades , plus Radar harness,s, data cable harness,s ,VHF antenna cables , TV antenna cables , 2 depth sounders cables , aft mounted 120v hydro wiring , 120v hydro main power switch box , Galvanic Isolator harness , 3 battery banks over 100 ft of main battery cables , I,ve also run wiring thro this boat where u & other,s have have said was not possible & impossible to do , but yet I,ve done it ! I,ve spent most likely ten times more time down in that aft berth doing mods than u,ll likely ever see ! , & I,ve observed a lot !
the two rudder steering tubes that ur rudder down haul lines go thro r equal to two garden hoses in size & if u submerge & get ur cockpit swamped long enough in 3" of water ur vent holes r not gonna do sh_t for u as they r 9-12" under water , so just think about where all that pressure is putting that water into ???
So just because U can,t visualize something or except that ur opion could b wrong just like the rest of us ! does,nt mean it can,t happen !
Do u still believe the Titanic is unsinkable !!! & never happened !!!
Also if that water level in the cockpit floor gets too 5" deep u got a 2" pipe in the floor that ur steering cable & control cables go thro that,ll drain all that water into the aft berth
Just Sayin That,s All

J
PS Time for another Scotch now that I got that off my chest When it comes to Boat safety never never ever say it ain,t gonna happen cause Murhpy,s Law say,s it,s gonna come back & bite u in the Butt

From the shot of Highlander’s stern (the boat’s, not the captain’s), it looks like he has water at, or above the top rudder post penetration (top of tiny tank). He’s got a bigger, heavier, motor than mine, and more weight due to mods. Alarmingly, he has created this condition with only himself in the cockpit. Very enlightening... Thanks.

Boat, sorry if anything I said offended you. The boat I am talking about lives very close to my house and I can see the mast when it is up. The only reason I heard about it is I was driving past their house and stopped in to say hello and they were busy cleaning out the water. They had not noticed the water until they got the boat home so there was no chance to look for where the water was coming in. So it is not hearsay. I am not trying to knock anyone or anything just trying to understand what happened. This is all really good information and worth discussion. I now have some ideas on what to tell my friend and will ask him if he plugged up those holes. This is not an attack on M boats. Obviously it is not a normal thing to have happen as very few people have ever experienced it.

Darren

Well, when the actual title of the post starts with a lie I tend to get a little defensive - I remember one time I trashed a GPS vendor here on the site in the title of a post because I had trouble returning a product and you guys told me I should not do that until the facts of the issue can be ascertained - and you were right - my bad opinion of the vendor was the result of a misunderstanding.

Yes, I'm getting arsenic on this - I get pretty burned when I read about problems on the boat that do not exist. The title of this post is blatant - and in my opinion totally wrong and I have provided more than enough facts to disprove it.

The title of this post should be: water ingress when heeling.

In one hand I am told the problem is the rudders, and then in the other I am told that it's impossible to actually "see" where the water is coming in so I am supposed to just trust all these guesses made by other people.

Yet the very experts that know more than any of us say water ingress is most likely the vent bowl and I say if water goes so far up the boat that you need to air out the contents that makes way more sense if we are going to make assumptions - also the vent bowl is a known source.

If they actually KNOW where the water was coming from then that's different - but they said themselves they did not notice the water until they got home! So if they did not even SEE the water coming in from the steering how can they say it's the steering?!?!

Now with a post like this hanging out there people are going to think they need to plug up their rudder wells and cause all kinds of new problems for a lot of boat owners - it's just irresponsible.

In my opinion I think this post actually qualifies for deletion but we can let Kevin decide on that. This is the kind of thing I read about all the time on sailboat anarchy - rumors and guesses with no facts.

Sorry, but I can't really back down on this one.

i never liked the ballast tank vent under the vee berth, i fill and empty my ballast tank multiple times a day, it was a nuisance- so i plumbed a hose back to the motor well, to a thru hull, and have a compression stopper in the thru-hull. That way i can fill and empty my ballast tank from the helm, and also no chance of leaking into the boat in the event of a knockdown- god forbid.

i did notice though that the original post title says "water ingres by the steering when heeling", no i dont know if thats an intentional "lie" or not, it seems a lot of semantic debate may have been resolved by the addition of a simple question mark, and looking at the thread title- it seems to me that that was the intention, and reading the posts and responses, seemed more like an inquiry than a statement.

but whatever it is, this home away from home for me, is a place i can come to, to relax with like-minded folk.
i live in a very remote place, and this forum allows me to live and share, and to boat vicariously with me-mates.
Kinda like a virtual BBQ, where we can josh and tease, and share and have a bunch of fun, inquire, and learn, and all be mates!!
Nothing pi$$ on the fire more, than when people start fighting at a BBQ.

peace out!

Well, the post stands - now when ever anyone searches Google for MacGregor Water and egress or leaking and so forth they are going to get responses that suggest the steering leaks. I guess if that's okay with you guys then who am I to complain. I will not comment any further on this subject, but I think it would be proper for anyone making a suggestion that something is happening to produce some evidence. This is a rather important issue for anyone considering a boat.