I will go with the high tech solution. Computer speakers in the cabin running on 12 Volt and having a hook-up to a 3.5 mm stereo plug. HP, Ipod, MP3 player incl. radio reciever, cassett walkman... you name it, all will work. Even a good old Boombox will work with this solution. And what about the radio antenna wiring, the power wiring, the speaker wiring and all the added weight for all that copper you add?
keep it simple.
Stereo Speaker Installation in 26X
Speaker Acoustics
There are several other possibilities for mounting speakers in the Mac that might be considered. - Ours are in the main cabin mounted on the side walls of the side benches, flush with holes cut through the sides. Seems to work fine.
In addition to the aesthetics, and the question of where to put the wires, there are also principles of physics (acoustics) that should be taken into account. Briefly, conventional speakers normally require some type of enclosure, the purpose of which is to contain or divert the acoustic waves (sound) emitted from the rear of the speaker cone and seperate them from those projected from the front of the speaker cone. Otherwise, the acoustic waves emitted from the front and rear of the speakers will tend to cancel each other out, severely attenuating the mid and lower frequencies. (- Try it. - A speaker held in "mid air" and not mounted in an enclosure of some kind will sound tinny and will produce little or no bass.)
Of course, there are several varieties of enclosure designs, each with their own characteristics and proponents. One of the classics is the "infinite baffle," which in esence is a closed box, usually with internal damping material, big enough to receive the rearwardly projected sound waves without excessive resistance or load on the speaker cone. This, in essence, is what we get by mounting the speakers on the sidewalls of the storage chambers formed under the port and starboard benches. There's lots of volume below the seats, and it seems to provide good tonal qualities for music. For speach, I would have preferred to have the speakers more nearly at "ear level," but there aren't many options for such a system in the Mac.
Another possibility that I intend to try is to connect a second pair of speakers to the rear speaker outlets in the cassette deck (most stereo decks seem to have front and back speaker outlets), with wires long enough to be run to the cockpit for a second pair of speakers for the cockpit. These could be mounted in small open-back cabinets that could be seated or suspended at convenient locations, perhaps on the starboard and port sides just aft of the cockpit door. For this installation, I'm suggesting that the external speakers could be tied onto a support (such as the safety lines on either side of the cockpit) when in use, and then taken down and stored (e.g., under the seats) when not in use. With respect to the acoustics, the rear of the speaker cones would face outwardly away the cockpit, and the sound emitted from the rear of the cones would again be substantially seperated from the sound coming from the front of the speaker cones. Some experiment might be in order to determine what size cabinets were needed. - So, the crew would enjoy the music coming from the front of the cones, and the fish would get to enjoy the same music coming from the rear of the cones. This is a realatively high-efficiency setup, since there is no resistance to the motion of the cone as there would be in a conventional, closed enclosure.
In any event, though sligtly off-topic for a sailing group, my point is that it's helpful to take into account some of these basic laws of physics when setting up your stereo in the Mac, as in any other application. These laws are just as real as those governing the sails, heeling of the boat, the center of resistance in the water, etc.
Jim Cate
In addition to the aesthetics, and the question of where to put the wires, there are also principles of physics (acoustics) that should be taken into account. Briefly, conventional speakers normally require some type of enclosure, the purpose of which is to contain or divert the acoustic waves (sound) emitted from the rear of the speaker cone and seperate them from those projected from the front of the speaker cone. Otherwise, the acoustic waves emitted from the front and rear of the speakers will tend to cancel each other out, severely attenuating the mid and lower frequencies. (- Try it. - A speaker held in "mid air" and not mounted in an enclosure of some kind will sound tinny and will produce little or no bass.)
Of course, there are several varieties of enclosure designs, each with their own characteristics and proponents. One of the classics is the "infinite baffle," which in esence is a closed box, usually with internal damping material, big enough to receive the rearwardly projected sound waves without excessive resistance or load on the speaker cone. This, in essence, is what we get by mounting the speakers on the sidewalls of the storage chambers formed under the port and starboard benches. There's lots of volume below the seats, and it seems to provide good tonal qualities for music. For speach, I would have preferred to have the speakers more nearly at "ear level," but there aren't many options for such a system in the Mac.
Another possibility that I intend to try is to connect a second pair of speakers to the rear speaker outlets in the cassette deck (most stereo decks seem to have front and back speaker outlets), with wires long enough to be run to the cockpit for a second pair of speakers for the cockpit. These could be mounted in small open-back cabinets that could be seated or suspended at convenient locations, perhaps on the starboard and port sides just aft of the cockpit door. For this installation, I'm suggesting that the external speakers could be tied onto a support (such as the safety lines on either side of the cockpit) when in use, and then taken down and stored (e.g., under the seats) when not in use. With respect to the acoustics, the rear of the speaker cones would face outwardly away the cockpit, and the sound emitted from the rear of the cones would again be substantially seperated from the sound coming from the front of the speaker cones. Some experiment might be in order to determine what size cabinets were needed. - So, the crew would enjoy the music coming from the front of the cones, and the fish would get to enjoy the same music coming from the rear of the cones. This is a realatively high-efficiency setup, since there is no resistance to the motion of the cone as there would be in a conventional, closed enclosure.
In any event, though sligtly off-topic for a sailing group, my point is that it's helpful to take into account some of these basic laws of physics when setting up your stereo in the Mac, as in any other application. These laws are just as real as those governing the sails, heeling of the boat, the center of resistance in the water, etc.
Jim Cate
There are a lot of things to consider when installing a stereo, not the least of which is that stereo consists of two channels designed to project an "image" by having sound waves arrive at your two ears at different times from slightly different directions. Another is that, as frequency increases, so does directionality, i.e. it becomes more like a spotlight or LED as opposed to a floodlight or all-around light, like the low or "bass" frequencies. Various designs try to address this, such as dome tweeters (higher frequency drivers), but it's still an issue when trying to create an area in which you don't have to be at one optimal position. One thing that's a LITTLE easier to do is to try to mount them at about the same height as your ears, especially at close distances.
Speaker placement in a boat requires a lot more compromise than in a home, much less a room designed for listening enjoyment. The typical placement on either side above the V-berth is probably as optimal as you can get in a 26X cabin, even though they are too close together, and the volume in that area is consumed by hard floatation foam. Except for a subwoofer (low frequency driver), where frequencies aren't directional, placing mid and high frequency speakers down in the seats, especially facing each other, or low in the cockpit pedestal, is about as bad as you can get for stereo listening. In fact, a crossover setup that sends high and midrange frequencies to the speakers above the V-berth and the lows to a woofer in the larger volume bilge area may be better.
For enjoyment at the helm, cockpit speakers on either side of the companionway, where many mount sailing instruments and a compass, may be optimal. However, these areas turned out to be ideal backrests when stretched out in the cockpit so I didn't want to mount anything there. The second choice would be boxed outdoor/marine speakers attached with rail mounts to the aft pushpits, but then they'd be too low, too close, and too wide, not to mention from behind, someone sitting at the helm. Compromises. A four-channel amplifier is nice, in that you can use the fader to change the relative volume of the cabin and cockpit speakers.
Anyway, these are just a few other things to consider. Our temporary solution was our Small expedient stereo put together with stuff we already had. The image was pretty good in front of the galley sink or sitting just in front of it, but forward of that, especially in the v-berth, the listerner was WAY off-axis. It also didn't really provide sufficient volume for the cockpit, especially with the outboard running, but was okay when anchored in a quiet area.
Speaker placement in a boat requires a lot more compromise than in a home, much less a room designed for listening enjoyment. The typical placement on either side above the V-berth is probably as optimal as you can get in a 26X cabin, even though they are too close together, and the volume in that area is consumed by hard floatation foam. Except for a subwoofer (low frequency driver), where frequencies aren't directional, placing mid and high frequency speakers down in the seats, especially facing each other, or low in the cockpit pedestal, is about as bad as you can get for stereo listening. In fact, a crossover setup that sends high and midrange frequencies to the speakers above the V-berth and the lows to a woofer in the larger volume bilge area may be better.
For enjoyment at the helm, cockpit speakers on either side of the companionway, where many mount sailing instruments and a compass, may be optimal. However, these areas turned out to be ideal backrests when stretched out in the cockpit so I didn't want to mount anything there. The second choice would be boxed outdoor/marine speakers attached with rail mounts to the aft pushpits, but then they'd be too low, too close, and too wide, not to mention from behind, someone sitting at the helm. Compromises. A four-channel amplifier is nice, in that you can use the fader to change the relative volume of the cabin and cockpit speakers.
Anyway, these are just a few other things to consider. Our temporary solution was our Small expedient stereo put together with stuff we already had. The image was pretty good in front of the galley sink or sitting just in front of it, but forward of that, especially in the v-berth, the listerner was WAY off-axis. It also didn't really provide sufficient volume for the cockpit, especially with the outboard running, but was okay when anchored in a quiet area.
-
Frank C
I rejected the idea of a CD changer 5 years ago. Big 6-disk & 10-disk changers were all the rage and MP3 was still in its infancy. But I bought one of the early Nomad players (by Creative Labs w/ 20G hard drive) and it still works well today.
I've also posted this hint before re computer speakers (but still have no pictures to help convey the concept). It's simple and works well for me. Most computer speakers sound terrific for their miniscule size, and they're easy to mount. I attached the two satellites, base-upwards, to self-closing hinges mounted on the lip of the sliding hatch. They swing down to face the cockpit, giving "adequate sound" (*defined below) while sailing. But amazingly, they also generate really terrific sound in the cabin. When swung backwards 90-degrees, they are facing straight down at the cabin sole, and their sound is amazingly enhanced. Best of all, the entire 3-piece system can be less than 50 bucks, so there's little at risk.
Final note ... check wattage carefully. I've learned by experience that good music is electrically costly - can run down a battery in just a few hours. BTW, odds are you'll find a 12v circuit and a step-down transformer inside the sub-woofer. It's your choice whether to chop into the SUB for direct-wiring, or just use an inverter. But the real "power" story is ... house power at 120v is basically "free." Since individual appliances are un-metered, nobody even considers how much is used by individual devices.
* Adequate sound? I've found that to enjoy music "while sailing" presents a conundrum, at least on our Bay. When sailing is most fun, the wind and water generate a very loud background. In order to "really hear" Bolero or Buffet (whatever) you need the volume at eight-tenths. Quite candidly, I find that a little excessive. Once anchored, the opposite problem arises ... loud becomes (more than a little) embarrassing - kinda like the low-riders cruising thru Burger King.
I've also posted this hint before re computer speakers (but still have no pictures to help convey the concept). It's simple and works well for me. Most computer speakers sound terrific for their miniscule size, and they're easy to mount. I attached the two satellites, base-upwards, to self-closing hinges mounted on the lip of the sliding hatch. They swing down to face the cockpit, giving "adequate sound" (*defined below) while sailing. But amazingly, they also generate really terrific sound in the cabin. When swung backwards 90-degrees, they are facing straight down at the cabin sole, and their sound is amazingly enhanced. Best of all, the entire 3-piece system can be less than 50 bucks, so there's little at risk.
Final note ... check wattage carefully. I've learned by experience that good music is electrically costly - can run down a battery in just a few hours. BTW, odds are you'll find a 12v circuit and a step-down transformer inside the sub-woofer. It's your choice whether to chop into the SUB for direct-wiring, or just use an inverter. But the real "power" story is ... house power at 120v is basically "free." Since individual appliances are un-metered, nobody even considers how much is used by individual devices.
* Adequate sound? I've found that to enjoy music "while sailing" presents a conundrum, at least on our Bay. When sailing is most fun, the wind and water generate a very loud background. In order to "really hear" Bolero or Buffet (whatever) you need the volume at eight-tenths. Quite candidly, I find that a little excessive. Once anchored, the opposite problem arises ... loud becomes (more than a little) embarrassing - kinda like the low-riders cruising thru Burger King.
[quote="Moe"]T
Speaker placement in a boat requires a lot more compromise than in a home, much less a room designed for listening enjoyment. The typical placement on either side above the V-berth is probably as optimal as you can get in a 26X cabin, even though they are too close together, and the volume in that area is consumed by hard floatation foam.
-------I agree that that is probably the best arrangment for the 26X. But in the case of the "new and improved 26M" (Just kidding Moe. - Settle down.), that doesn't work very well because the forward end of the cabin is irregular.- The head/galley/cabinet extend rearwardly from the V-berth several feet into the starboard side of the cabin. - In other words, a speaker mounted above the V-berth on the port side and facing into the cabin would be five or six feet forward of one mounted on the starboard side in the cabinet above the sink, which again would mess up the stereo image. I suppose that you could build in some sort of cabinet above the port bench, in line with the right speaker, but I think that would clutter up the limited space in that passageway.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Except for a subwoofer (low frequency driver), where frequencies aren't directional, placing mid and high frequency speakers down in the seats, especially facing each other, or low in the cockpit pedestal, is about as bad as you can get for stereo listening.
------ Actually, it may depend on what kind of sound and what music you like. We once chartered a boat having left and right speakers mounted in the sidewalls of the port and starboard benches, spaced apart about 8 feet longitudinally, and, though not ideal stereo imaging, it was by for the most impressive sound, for classical music, that I have ever heard in a boat or car. (And for reference, I have a $20K sound system, my 5th, in my listening room.) That was our family's first sailing vacation, and I will never forget the the sound of that stereo system.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
In fact, a crossover setup that sends high and midrange frequencies to the speakers above the V-berth and the lows to a woofer in the larger volume bilge area may be better.
------Probably would. It would involve somewhat greater expense and wiring complexity.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
For enjoyment at the helm, cockpit speakers on either side of the companionway, where many mount sailing instruments and a compass, may be optimal. However, these areas turned out to be ideal backrests when stretched out in the cockpit so I didn't want to mount anything there.
------I agree that mounting them in the aft of the cockpit wouldn't provide good sound. - My suggestion was supporting lightweight speakers on hangers or the like above and to either side of the cockpit seats, facing rearwardly. The idea would be to hold the speakers with support or hanger arrangements from which you could disconnect them when not in use.
Bottom line seems to be that there isn't any convenient, optimum mounting arrangement for a sound system in the M. - But that's good news, Moe, because you can add that to your list of features that make the X a better boat!
Jim
Speaker placement in a boat requires a lot more compromise than in a home, much less a room designed for listening enjoyment. The typical placement on either side above the V-berth is probably as optimal as you can get in a 26X cabin, even though they are too close together, and the volume in that area is consumed by hard floatation foam.
-------I agree that that is probably the best arrangment for the 26X. But in the case of the "new and improved 26M" (Just kidding Moe. - Settle down.), that doesn't work very well because the forward end of the cabin is irregular.- The head/galley/cabinet extend rearwardly from the V-berth several feet into the starboard side of the cabin. - In other words, a speaker mounted above the V-berth on the port side and facing into the cabin would be five or six feet forward of one mounted on the starboard side in the cabinet above the sink, which again would mess up the stereo image. I suppose that you could build in some sort of cabinet above the port bench, in line with the right speaker, but I think that would clutter up the limited space in that passageway.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Except for a subwoofer (low frequency driver), where frequencies aren't directional, placing mid and high frequency speakers down in the seats, especially facing each other, or low in the cockpit pedestal, is about as bad as you can get for stereo listening.
------ Actually, it may depend on what kind of sound and what music you like. We once chartered a boat having left and right speakers mounted in the sidewalls of the port and starboard benches, spaced apart about 8 feet longitudinally, and, though not ideal stereo imaging, it was by for the most impressive sound, for classical music, that I have ever heard in a boat or car. (And for reference, I have a $20K sound system, my 5th, in my listening room.) That was our family's first sailing vacation, and I will never forget the the sound of that stereo system.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
In fact, a crossover setup that sends high and midrange frequencies to the speakers above the V-berth and the lows to a woofer in the larger volume bilge area may be better.
------Probably would. It would involve somewhat greater expense and wiring complexity.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
For enjoyment at the helm, cockpit speakers on either side of the companionway, where many mount sailing instruments and a compass, may be optimal. However, these areas turned out to be ideal backrests when stretched out in the cockpit so I didn't want to mount anything there.
------I agree that mounting them in the aft of the cockpit wouldn't provide good sound. - My suggestion was supporting lightweight speakers on hangers or the like above and to either side of the cockpit seats, facing rearwardly. The idea would be to hold the speakers with support or hanger arrangements from which you could disconnect them when not in use.
Bottom line seems to be that there isn't any convenient, optimum mounting arrangement for a sound system in the M. - But that's good news, Moe, because you can add that to your list of features that make the X a better boat!
Jim
-
parrothead
- First Officer
- Posts: 426
- Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 7:25 am
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
- Location: Former vessel: '05 M "Blue Heaven" - Nissan 50 TLDI --- Now owner of a Gemini 3400
If I've copied the link correctly, here is the sort of exterior-mount that you've proposed -- from June '04 on the mods page http://www.macgregorsailors.com/cgi-bin ... record=384
[quote="Catigale"]Be careful with your speaker placement - mounting your woofers too low can delaminate blue hulls...
That's an important consideration alright, but I understand that the higher speeds attained by the blue boats result in a reduction in surface pressure, due to the Bernoulli-effect, that tends to minimize the damage otherwise caused by the woofers. - Luckily I have the white hull.
Jim
That's an important consideration alright, but I understand that the higher speeds attained by the blue boats result in a reduction in surface pressure, due to the Bernoulli-effect, that tends to minimize the damage otherwise caused by the woofers. - Luckily I have the white hull.
Jim
-
Dimitri-2000X-Tampa
- Admiral
- Posts: 2043
- Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 5:36 am
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: Tampa, Florida 2000 Mercury BigFoot 50HP 4-Stroke on 26X hull# 3575.B000
Thanks for all the insights, some good info in this thread. Doesn't sound like many folks have put speakers in the X pedestal. This seemed like a logical place for cockpit speakers but thinking about the acoustics, the speakers may cancel each other and provide less quality. Maybe it would be ok for one speaker, but that wouldn't make much sense from a symmetry point of view.
I did try my speakers in open air once and they did sound pretty bad so I put them in a cardboard box. I think I may have had them in the same box actually. Sounded much better like that so Jim's post made a lot of sense. I wonder how much difference there really is between L and R channel in a stereo system...ie having them in the same box. And of course, my boom box is a 2 channel in a box system too...but they probably have designed it as 2 boxes inside a box.
I suppose that point may even be true for the cabin mount above the V-Berth. It would be like having them in one box versus on either side of the boat where there is more separation. I guess if that area is full of foam flotation though, it kind of deadens the possible cancellations. Hey..maybe that is a solution for the cockpit then. Put the speakers in the pedestal box but then stuff it full of some sound insulation. Perhaps that could be the answer. Another choice might be trying to mount inside the fuel lockers somehow.
I don't think it would be so bad having external speakers on the stern rails facing toward the cabin, afterall, that is how you build a surround sound system. My problem with that is that the elements would kill the speakers pretty fast in FL. I always keep my pedestal covered with a sunbrella cover while not in use.
I did try my speakers in open air once and they did sound pretty bad so I put them in a cardboard box. I think I may have had them in the same box actually. Sounded much better like that so Jim's post made a lot of sense. I wonder how much difference there really is between L and R channel in a stereo system...ie having them in the same box. And of course, my boom box is a 2 channel in a box system too...but they probably have designed it as 2 boxes inside a box.
I suppose that point may even be true for the cabin mount above the V-Berth. It would be like having them in one box versus on either side of the boat where there is more separation. I guess if that area is full of foam flotation though, it kind of deadens the possible cancellations. Hey..maybe that is a solution for the cockpit then. Put the speakers in the pedestal box but then stuff it full of some sound insulation. Perhaps that could be the answer. Another choice might be trying to mount inside the fuel lockers somehow.
I don't think it would be so bad having external speakers on the stern rails facing toward the cabin, afterall, that is how you build a surround sound system. My problem with that is that the elements would kill the speakers pretty fast in FL. I always keep my pedestal covered with a sunbrella cover while not in use.
-
Frank C
-
Dimitri-2000X-Tampa
- Admiral
- Posts: 2043
- Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 5:36 am
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: Tampa, Florida 2000 Mercury BigFoot 50HP 4-Stroke on 26X hull# 3575.B000
That's a good point about exterior speakers Frank. I think if I put them there, I would put box speakers (as shown in this thread attached to the rails) in the fuel lockers. Mounting them using some sort of bracket. Of course, it would still be installing an electrical device near your gas tank (albeit low voltage) so maybe not the best idea. Hmm, maybe I should do rail mounted speakers on my grab bar where they can be covered with my pedestal cover...but they might stick out some and impede the already tight passage ways.
...for my 2$ worth (there's no cents symbol on the kebd...besides its a boat...everything costs more, even free opinions)
We lived with a boombox for so long, I kept replacing it with better boom boxes. I just couldn't bring myself to drill holes...But I finally did. I love the speakers above the v-berth, as well as the two in the pedestal - no regrets.
The reason for the post is to suggest a wired remote...but uninstalled. The unit I got is JVC and you don't have to install it.. We use the wired remote ALL the time! I put it wherever I am, and can always control it without moving at all. The ultimate "setee potato" gadget! When sitting in the cockpit, its right beside me. When sleeping in the v-berth, its right there. When swimming, its on the "back porch" so I can reach it from the water.
Its now my favorite thing about the stereo...
Tom
Annie'sSong
Denver
We lived with a boombox for so long, I kept replacing it with better boom boxes. I just couldn't bring myself to drill holes...But I finally did. I love the speakers above the v-berth, as well as the two in the pedestal - no regrets.
The reason for the post is to suggest a wired remote...but uninstalled. The unit I got is JVC and you don't have to install it.. We use the wired remote ALL the time! I put it wherever I am, and can always control it without moving at all. The ultimate "setee potato" gadget! When sitting in the cockpit, its right beside me. When sleeping in the v-berth, its right there. When swimming, its on the "back porch" so I can reach it from the water.
Its now my favorite thing about the stereo...
Tom
Annie'sSong
Denver
-
Dimitri-2000X-Tampa
- Admiral
- Posts: 2043
- Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 5:36 am
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: Tampa, Florida 2000 Mercury BigFoot 50HP 4-Stroke on 26X hull# 3575.B000
Thanks for the response Tom, I tthink you are the first person to respond who has installed speakers in the pedestal. I had almost talked myself out of putting any speakers IN the pedestal thinking that perhaps the best sound quality at the right height would come from mounting box speakers on the rear pulpits facing towards the cabin (or possibly on top of the pedestal). But it seems hard to run the wires plus the elements would probably rag the speakers out every couple years so I'm now back to putting them in the pedestal again but perhaps with some inserted sound insulation to keep the channel interference down.
There are so many cool things out there these days, like the drop down video monitors, putting DVD and TV in for those Sunday afternoon sails during football season (yes, the conference championships today were pretty lopsided and boring unfortunately). With a marine stereo, you get wired remote but I haven't seen any that can play DVD videos also. If you go with a car stereo, you can get it all, DVD, MP3, FM/AM, etc. but the ones I've seen have a wireless remote. I fear it might go overboard. And although your idea of having a wired one to move around the boat is good, I would worry about the tangle factor with my four kids running around all the time. One day when I finally install an autopilot remote, I do plan to have it so that I can use it from anywhere in the boat (I wanna drive the boat standing in the front hatch).
The FM modulators with built in USB for MP3 music are cool and inexpensive too ... definitely key if you installed a stereo in the pre-MP3 era.
There are so many cool things out there these days, like the drop down video monitors, putting DVD and TV in for those Sunday afternoon sails during football season (yes, the conference championships today were pretty lopsided and boring unfortunately). With a marine stereo, you get wired remote but I haven't seen any that can play DVD videos also. If you go with a car stereo, you can get it all, DVD, MP3, FM/AM, etc. but the ones I've seen have a wireless remote. I fear it might go overboard. And although your idea of having a wired one to move around the boat is good, I would worry about the tangle factor with my four kids running around all the time. One day when I finally install an autopilot remote, I do plan to have it so that I can use it from anywhere in the boat (I wanna drive the boat standing in the front hatch).
The FM modulators with built in USB for MP3 music are cool and inexpensive too ... definitely key if you installed a stereo in the pre-MP3 era.