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Duane Dunn, Allegro wrote:He said to skip the wheel puller. He had me unscrew the nut a few turns but leave it on so it still covered all the thread at the end. The get a good pull going top and bottom (not twisting, brace your feet on the pedestal so you are not pulling on it's mounting on the floor. Give a few good raps with a hammer on the nut/shaft end, and bingo, poped right off.

Having read here that a few people were able to get the wheel off this way, I skipped it too at first. I pulled and pulled, and hit the shaft many times (probably a lot harder than I should have). It would not come off, despite trying this for about 45 minutes. It was even a bit of a struggle with the gear puller. I don't think there's any way mine would have come off without the puller.

I also asked about compass location. He suggested back on the footwell contour in the aft berth, or on older boats like mine, the back face of the step hump. I said, aren't they suppose to face forward? He says it really doesn't matter which way it faces as long as it is vertical. Makes sense, who cares which way it thinks is north. You point it where you want to go and it holds that course, what internal heading it is doesn't matter. He also says that when you tell it to navigate to a waypoint it doesn't even use the compass. Is steers exclusively by the cross track error information in the NEMA data stream.

That's not completely accurate. While it does primarily use the CTE info, it DOES need an accurate heading reference to know which way to turn when initially heading to a waypoint. But, if you do the "which way is north" procedure, all will be well.

I bought mine at West Marine. They want $899 for the Sport Pilot Plus Mechanical Steering in their catalog. Boaters World has it in their catolog for $799. The moaned and groaned, said it couldn't be the same thing, but when they called around to get the exact Raymarine part numbers to check they found it was and matched the Boaters World price.

I've started shopping at the Boaters World as much as possible now, because their prices are, in most cases, significantly better than West Marine. Their selection (at least at the store here) is not quite as good though.

--Mike

I find I can always get a better price at Boaters World, but as you say, their selection often is not complete. They do not stock the pilots at all, special order only even though it is in their catalog. West had it on the shelf. With so many West stores around here you can usually find what you want in one of them.

I wonder how much Raymarine themselves would sell it to you for? They seemed to have the best price on the remote control unit when I sent mine in for repair last year. I didn't buy it at the time, but I'm seriously considering it for the future. It would be cool and dry to steer from inside of the cabin. Plus, its got the heading display and auto-tack feature.

Duane, if you are interested in mounting the compass on the foot well flange, let me know and I can take a couple pics of my installation tomorrow morning and email them to you. From what I saw in the installation manual, I don't think you can beat that location as far as the requirements of the compass go...but it could be just slightly in the way if anyone tried to get in/out of the rear berth via the middle (with the ladder up in the later model boats obviously).

Mines all in, we'll see how it works in a couple days. I put the compass inside in the under cooler liner area low on the back panel. It's centered just above the back edge of the centerboard trunk. It's low, centered side to side, and front to back, and completely hidden away and protected. Running the wire back along the starboard side under the head to the transom and then along the pedestal cables was simple.

Everything seems fine. I tapped the NEMA receive wires to the GPS send wires at the DB9 connector where my Pocket PC plugs in. We'll see how that works.

I still have two questions.

First the pilot seems to have added some noticable drag to the steering system, it's no longer one finger easy, more like two or three fingers now. Is this what everyone else experienced? I guess having to turn the guts in the pilot may account for the load. Maybe my clutch hasn't disengaged yet. Is there such a thing? I used to be able to easily push the outboard and spin the wheel but now this is harder to do.

Second, The pilot NEMA receive is hooked up to the GPS transmit. I would assume this will be fine when using routes and waypoints on the GPS. But I rarely do this. I put the routes in my computer (Pocket PC). Should I have hooked the pilot to the receive of the GPS which is where the computer will be transmitting or will what ever the computer sends be repeated by the GPS and still be received by the pilot? I'm not sure which device is the source of the cross track error message, the GPS of the computer that stores the routes and waypoints. Maybe I should put my solder iron in the boat incase I need to switch mid-way on the trip.

So, I take it your wheel came off without a fight?

Duane Dunn, Allegro wrote:First the pilot seems to have added some noticable drag to the steering system, it's no longer one finger easy, more like two or three fingers now. Is this what everyone else experienced? I guess having to turn the guts in the pilot may account for the load. Maybe my clutch hasn't disengaged yet. Is there such a thing?

On the ST4000, there is a clutch lever that must be manually engaged and disengaged when turning the autopilot on and off. When the clutch is engaged, the wheel can't be moved by hand at all. I'm not sure if the SportPilot is like that... does it have a clutch mechanism, or is there just a motor that is always more or less "engaged" with the wheel whether the autopilot is being used or not?

Second, The pilot NEMA receive is hooked up to the GPS transmit. I would assume this will be fine when using routes and waypoints on the GPS. But I rarely do this. I put the routes in my computer (Pocket PC). Should I have hooked the pilot to the receive of the GPS which is where the computer will be transmitting or will what ever the computer sends be repeated by the GPS and still be received by the pilot? I'm not sure which device is the source of the cross track error message, the GPS of the computer that stores the routes and waypoints. Maybe I should put my solder iron in the boat incase I need to switch mid-way on the trip.

Hmmmmm... tricky. I don't know if the GPS will repeat NMEA that is sent to it. You might very well end up having to move it to the output of the Pocket PC (and are you sure the Pocket PC sends out XTE info?). It should be easy to check for this before you even get underway... the ST4000 will complain if you try to enter NAV mode when no valid data is being received. I'm sure the SportPilot has some way of warning for this too.

--Mike

I've owned both the ST4000 on my previous boat and now the sportpilot+ on the Mac. The ST4000 will disengage all the way with the clutch, the SportPilot always puts a considerable amount of drag on the system so what you are experiencing is quite normal. In fact, early last summer, when I first bought my boat, the autopilot was frozen so I took it off and sent it to RayMarine. Interestingly, the wheel just popped off by hand that time...no pulling, no pounding.

Since the unit was to be gone for 3 weeks and I wanted to sail my new boat, I put the wheel back on without the autopilot and went out on it a couple times. During that 3 weeks, it was very easy to turn the wheel...so, at the time, the steering system was working fine (came apart recently though). Then I got the autopilot back and tried to pull the wheel off (now just straight on the shaft without the little coupler) and it would not come off no matter how much pounding I did...had to borrow a gear puller to get it off. Once I put the newly overhauled autopilot back on, the steering friction came back. There is actually an advantage though....with no autopilot, my engine weight would make the steering travel to one side when I was sailing on a heel...with the added autopilot friction, it doesn't do that.

Wrt to NMEA, I can't speak for the pocket PC, but with my Garmin 176C, I frequently forget to put the communication mode back into NMEA mode (it is in host transfer mode from the previous eve when I downloaded my routes and waypoints). If you hit the Nav mode on the autopilot with the GPS not sending NMEA, it beeps constantly to let you know it is not getting the communication it needs.

Have fun Duane, you (and your wife) are going to love that sportpilot, I use mine constantly.

We just got back from 3 days out with the new Sport Pilot +. This was a mastless motoring trip starting in Lake Washington, out the locks, across the Sound to Illahee State Park for one night and then up to Poulsbo for the second night. It's spring break up here.

Wow, why didn't someone tell me I HAD to get one sooner.

What a pleasant difference it makes. The mac is such a squirely boat under power, particularly when any wind or seaway is running, that long passages always required your full, yet boring attention. I never could leave the wheel un-attended at all. even if it was locked down from turning a wave, someone shifting their weight inside, or the wind would knock it off course.

Now I can just sit back and enjoy boating while ghost mate steers away.

My first test was a 4 mile straight run fom just out of the launch to the first bridge. Aim, turn the knob and just sit back. I tried all the different settings and on the 2nd click up from low, motoring with ballast empty, all fins up at 11 knots the pilot easily held a better course than hand steering would.

Once we cleared the locks it was time to try the nav mode. I soldered the NEMA receive to the output from my GPS, it see's it fine, but as I expected doesn't see the output from a route running on my computer. I need to try to put in a switch so I can choose either. All in all I was very happy. We ran slow, 6 knots (kids were watching a movie), with 6" of centerboard line and one rudder down. The pilot was on the 2nd click again. We started out above the line between waypoints so the pilot selected a nice angle to get back on track then turned and followed the route rock solid. You couldn't even find any difference in the track and the route line on the screen. I do find that it asks permission to turn to the next waypoint a bit early. At first I would push the button as soon as it started beeping but this resulted in making the turn to early. I found I needed to wait as it seems to beep about a 10th of a mile early. I think the best answer is to build a little extra searoom into the waypoints to account for this tendancy.

All throughout the trip we used it as a third hand. Now I can move about the cockpit to do little tasks. Spot landmarks with the biniculars, enjoy the view as I watch for traffic. I find standing in the dodger at the companionway is a great break from sitting in the cockpit. All the drudgery is gone.

Coming back today we had some tough conditions. After clearing Agate Pass we headed across for Shilshoe. The pilot was running the route that started clear back in Poulsbo where we spent the night. The wind was 20-25 from the south and the tide was flooding from the north. We needed to run almost due east which put us at just a slight angle to 3-4' swells with the wind pushing them counter to the current. These would be very tedious hand steering conditions motoring at 8-9 knots. Instead, with loads of spray soaking the starboard side while we sat snug in our full enclosure zipped up tight and dry enjoying the show, the pilot did the work . The Sport Pilot + kept us on a perfect track ending right between the red and green bouys.

This is the second expensive mod my wife has really liked, right after the full enclosure.

Nice Story Duane. I'm not so sure if mine always steers courses so perfectly though...did you do a calibration procedure or just use it out of the box?

Funny story with us: We bought our previous sailboat before we had any kids and during that time, my wife was willing to steer the boat while I went forward to mess with stuff, etc. When our oldest was born over 7 years ago, she wouldn't steer anymore at all because as a new mother, she wanted to devote total attention to the baby (who went on her first sail at 3 weeks old). So, that was when my single-handing days began and I had to install an autopilot out of necessity. In the 10 months we've owned the Mac and the dozens of outings we have already had, I don't believe she has ever touched the wheel..which of course, is a bad thing and at some point, I need to get her at least used to it .. just in case.

In fact, it was my wife who found the ad for the Mac we ended up buying...and the first thing she said is "look, it has an autopilot"... The previous owner said he had never used it in 3 years (not sure if I believed that one though) and it was frozen when I bought it. So, the first thing I did was to send it for an overhaul to RayMarine...About $250 and 3 weeks later, and it was as good as new...they even replaced the old case which was seriously sun faded...obviously, the previous owner never kept it under cover and it faded as well as the control stalk rotting off almost completely. Needless to say, the second thing I did was have a custom helm cover made for her...

I used the pilot right out of the box. The boat hit the water, I turned it on, pointed it and sat back for the ride.

My wife likes to drive occasionally, and now with the pilot she may stand watch more often.

We spent the first night at a park dock where we were the only boat there. Very nice place. In the morning we left the two younger kids on the dock and I took my wife and oldest son, just 13, out for some docking practice. We fendered up heavy on the port side and went for it. There was a good wind blowing so we made a number of both down wind and upwind approaches to the dock letting them both get the feel for drift, and weight of the boat. They wacked the dock a couple times but by the end each had good control. We also got to have them each practice departing under varying conditions and even played with a spring line simulating a departure where we were sandwiched in front and back.

My son did the final spring departure quite well and as we left, with all on board this time, I even threw a Mikey overboard at him by tossing the life ring over and making him go back and get it.

It never hurts to practice.

Duane,

You clearly have the most capable crew of anyone here!

--Mike

Well, Duane's observations have me sold on getting a auto helm. I've never seen one.

I can't help wonder why the Sport Pilot wheel wobbles. Is this a manufacturing oversight or just something unique to the Mac?

The pictures all seem to show a larger wheel that appears to be necessary to fit the thing.

Sloop John B wrote:Well, Duane's observations have me sold on getting a auto helm. I've never seen one.

I can't help wonder why the Sport Pilot wheel wobbles. Is this a manufacturing oversight or just something unique to the Mac?

The pictures all seem to show a larger wheel that appears to be necessary to fit the thing.

The larger wheel is (almost) a necessity with the ST4000+, but from what I understand, the stock wheel is fine with the SportPilot.

--Mike

The stock 15" dished "Destroyer" wheel is fine for the SportPilot. Raymarine says do not use a metal wheel larger than 18" with it.

Do get the "Plus" model. Consider getting the rudder position transducer. Raymarine says it will help if your boat has "slop" in the steering system and does "S"ing. Chuck Husick writes:

"One of the distinguishing points in autopilot design is the use of a rudder position sensor. A human helmsman makes constant use of his knowledge of the position of the vessel's rudder while holding a heading. Many autopilots are equipped with a rudder position sensor, connected directly to the boat's rudder post. The autopilot is programmed to use this information to ensure that the rudder is deflected only as far as necessary to make a timely correction from an off heading condition. Use of rudder position information greatly improves overall autopilot performance, especially in a seaway. Autopilots that function without knowledge of rudder position will generally steer less efficiently and with less precision than those supplied with rudder position feedback. Some autopilots compensate for lack of a rudder heading sensor by using internal logic to simulate for the heading sensor information, however performance is usually inferior to the real thing."

The SportPilot adds a little friction to the steering because of its internal friction clutch. This feature allows you, when the unit is activated or not, to turn the wheel manually at any time to steer around crabpots or adjust course. Just turn the wheel to where you want to go, hold it for a moment, and the SportPilot will then hold that new heading, unless you are using it to go to the next waypoint on your GPS.

The slight friction is sometimes useful when the autopilot is not activated. If your boat is balanced well you can release the wheel and "stay the course". Hopefully, you will not be heading for disaster like some others who favor that term.

If you are going with the Sport Pilot Plus I would stay with the stock wheel. For the ST4000 Plus you also should plan to add a larger wheel.

I find that the Sport Pilot goes quiet straight without the rudder position indicator and putting it on would certainly complicate the installation. It's just one more thing on the transom to get stepped on.

The key to getting a straight course for me was using the low settings on the pilot. On the higher settings it over compensated. Boat config is also important. at higher speeds above 8 knots it did fine with only the motor in the water. At low speeds just the motor alone was not enough surface area. By adding some ceterboard and a rudder it then had great control. One config that was terrible was when I tried a bit of centerboard with just the motor alone. It quickly lost control and cried for help when the deviation got out of range.

I think compass loacation can also have a big impact. The location I used is the lowest possible and centered both side to side and front to back. This may be why I seem to have better results than some. The mac tends to wag it's nose back and forth and I think getting the compass well forward causes the computer to react a bit sooner just as a human anticipates the swing and compensates. Taking the easy location right under the cockpit may hurt the pilots performance.

I to was worried about the reported wobble in the sport pilot. I expected it to be worse from the reports, but it really isn't much at all. Make sure you use the 3/4"-1" adaptor as instructed and the steering attachment is quite solid. Since the pilot body itself doesn't wobble it appears that this is a function of the internal design of the pilot where the brass parts mate together.

From an aesthetic point of view I think the Sport Pilot fits the mac pedestal perfectly. You may want to check the area below you wheel for obstructions. My tach is mounted very low on the vertical surface and my tilt guage was mounted below the wheel on the slanted surface. I was thinking I would have to move it, but as it turned out the antirotation bracket mounted perfectly just above it. I also find I really like how the pilot shifted the wheel about 3" aft. For me, it is now easier to reach and hold the wheel. It also has given me just the perfect bit of extra space on the pedestal for instruments so they no longer are cramped. I was able to reconfigure them vertically and they now look and work much better.

The ST4000 Plus is more intrusive looking with the big ring on the wheel, people will know you have a pilot. It's advantages over the Sport Pilot Plus are the wheel doesn't move, no wobble, no shift back if you find it cramped behind the wheel. True sailboat features such as auto tack, and a clutch that takes the drag off the wheel when the pilot is disengaged.

Duane Dunn, Allegro wrote:I think compass loacation can also have a big impact. The location I used is the lowest possible and centered both side to side and front to back. This may be why I seem to have better results than some. The mac tends to wag it's nose back and forth and I think getting the compass well forward causes the computer to react a bit sooner just as a human anticipates the swing and compensates. Taking the easy location right under the cockpit may hurt the pilots performance.

I'm not sure about this... I think the installation guide suggests the "center of rotation" as the best spot. Anyone know what fore/aft position this is? Anyway, I would think that moving the compass forward would not necessarily result in any quicker detection of a turn. The compass is not measuring the horizontal acceleration forces of the turn (which would be exaggerated towards the bow), just the actual rotation. Regardless of where it's is located, a 90 degrees per minute turn is going to have the same effect on the compass, right? Having it located where extraneous movement (that is not detectable by the compass anyway, and could degrade accuracy) is minimized makes sense to me.

That said, who cares, as long as it works!

The ST4000 Plus is more intrusive looking with the big ring on the wheel, people will know you have a pilot.

Insert best Tim Allen-style "yep, grunt grunt" here.

It's advantages over the Sport Pilot Plus are the wheel doesn't move, no wobble, no shift back if you find it cramped behind the wheel. True sailboat features such as auto tack, and a clutch that takes the drag off the wheel when the pilot is disengaged.

While most of the drag is indeed removed when the clutch is disengaged, I do have to say that it sure does make a lot of noise as you turn the wheel. How loud is the SportPilot?

--Mike