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Terry wrote:How about a swivel pully without the cam cleat a foot up the mast, then another one at the base plate to direct the line out to the daggerboard pully then back along the hatch slide to a clutch or cleat at the cockpit? That may work better with a dodger.

Not sure if I can picture it in my mind..sounds overly complicated...why mount a swivel pully on the mast? The setup on our boat goes from the mast top to the base plate pulley, to a second cheek block on top of the daggerboard block, back to the cockpit with a linelock. (see pics above). There is zero issue with the mast swinging.

Here is what I used for inspiration (I used a slightly modified version of the first setup):
Harken halyard handling page

Paul

Here we go again one year later and Ill report this again .....
its easy to pop the main sheet out to lower the sail even though its a foot up the mast from the cockpit if you feel its too hard you can buy a spacer to change the angle of the cam cleat, I never felt it was needed.......after you raise the sail you roll your line up just like any other line on your boat and hang it from the dagger board cleat that on my boat is not used any more because I installed a cam cleat for the dagger board.

very basic very clean and works 100% of the time

I really dont care if anyone uses this or not but please quit saying "I cant see how this would work" then you take a simple mod I posted and then
without even trying it you tell me and others it wont work. Its insulting
a little and degrading. use it dont use it but please be kind and understand how frustrating it is to use something for a year with out any problems and have people say it wont work.

Many people have installed this and are happy with it. Of course there are other ways to do things and every one is free to do what they want.

Terry wrote:How about a swivel pully without the cam cleat a foot up the mast, then another one at the base plate to direct the line out to the daggerboard pully then back along the hatch slide to a clutch or cleat at the cockpit? That may work better with a dodger.

Exactly as Paul describes. That's what I have without the block at the bottom of the mast. it runs down, over, and back to a sheetclutch just forward of the starboard winch. I raise the halyard from the binnacle. I do have 2 swivel blocks mounted on the bottom of the mast , but they are for the downhaul, and cunningham.

aya16 wrote:Here we go again one year later and Ill report this again .....
its easy to pop the main sheet out to lower the sail even though its a foot up the mast from the cockpit if you feel its too hard you can buy a spacer to change the angle of the cam cleat, I never felt it was needed.......after you raise the sail you roll your line up just like any other line on your boat and hang it from the dagger board cleat that on my boat is not used any more because I installed a cam cleat for the dagger board.

very basic very clean and works 100% of the time

I really dont care if anyone uses this or not but please quit saying "I cant see how this would work" then you take a simple mod I posted and then
without even trying it you tell me and others it wont work. Its insulting
a little and degrading. use it dont use it but please be kind and understand how frustrating it is to use something for a year with out any problems and have people say it wont work.

Many people have installed this and are happy with it. Of course there are other ways to do things and every one is free to do what they want.

Didnt say it wouldnt work..in my mind I just can't picture how it would work in practice.. Not discounting it working or not..

The rotational value of the new MacGregor M model spar has been in use since 03. When in 1925 the regatta committee of the New York Yacht Club heard of L. Francis Herreshoff's new patented rotating mast design, it promptly passed the rule prohibiting "revolving masts, double luffed sails, and similar contrivances". This prohibition is still in place! The Rotating Spar was outlawed in the time of Nathanial Herreshoff as they were considered an unfair advantage. It may well be part of the penalty the PHRF has assessed against the newer M model. The rotation of the M spar has been challenged for its benefits and operation along with the elimination of the backstay now standard on many new yachts today. There have been scows, catamarans and many large yachts even into the maxi size picking up on the benefits of the rotating spar.

These cleats have been used with scow and catamaran halyards. The rating of the block and cam cleat is a Safe Working Load, not the Maximum load or breaking load. They have proven to be very serviceable and have been recommended by long time Mac sailor/racer/dealer. Some have challenged the strength of the block/cleat. I have seen some racing spars on his winning MacGregor with this set-up.

Opinion on Dodger withheld:

The swiveling block mounted on the spar does not transfer any of the downward thrust of the Halyard Tension to the bearing surface of the mast base. This eliminates any force that would inhibit the smooth and dependable rotation of the spar in most sailing conditions. Early spar support bearing washers made of Teflon were being purged from the base swivel of the M spars because of the downward force/Tension of the standing rigging, probably increased by the sailing hard on the wind and extreme upper and lower shroud tension. BWY Yachts have installed a Stainless Steel thrust bearing at the bottom of the mast to make rotation easier and smoother. And also installed a system that allows us to adjust how much the mast rotates, and to help it rotate if vang loads keep it from rotating. Some kits will be available very soon for a lot of the rigging and hardware stuff. They will have kits for running backstays, 2 to 1 mainsail traveler conversion, mast base bearing, and mast rotation control all available this fall. And also working on either a kit, or do-it-yourself instructions to add lead inside the stock daggerboard. This mod is reasonably simple to do and does make a noticeable difference.

Aya16 & those that have the swivel cleat: Do you have the Harken, or the Ronstan model?

---Harrison

I used the Ronstan swivel cleat all last season. It worked well for me, although I do not have a dodger. To release it, just flick (or pull up, depending on tension) and it lets out. I previously had the halyard led down to the base plate, 90 degrees to a stanchion, and then back to a cleat. In lighter to medium air, the mast seemed to rotate poorly and incompletely. This swivel cleat set-up doesn't effect the rotation at all. With a dodger, you would probably keeep the halyard outside the dodger and reach around to release it. Awkward, but still better than climbing on deck.

I like the look of that swivel cleat for a simple way to bring my lines aft.

If its low enough on the mast, you could even mount it with backing washers and nuts, which would be really strong.

Hmmmmm.

[quote]Also the other option (BBs) is more or less the same as I have installed on my 26X, which I thought would stop the mast turning. But Baldbaby says on the old post that this works fine, only at very low winds this occurs sometimes. Is this because the halyard line can stretch a little? Hmm. I am still confused[/quote]

I was also suprised that this setup doesn't cause problems. When I ordered the boat from the dealer he said he could run the halyard aft and I just said yes without thinking about it. If I had looked at the boat carefully I might have decided it wouldn't work, but it works fine. I thought the force of the halyard pulling down on the mast would create more friction at the pivot point and cause rotation problems. I don't think the angle that the halyard pulls on the top of the mast causes much rotation moment because the mast is pretty straight and the halyard relatively long.

Catigale wrote:I like the look of that swivel cleat for a simple way to bring my lines aft.

If its low enough on the mast, you could even mount it with backing washers and nuts, which would be really strong.

Not only "could you" use nuts and washers ... if planning to load the halyard from the cockpit, I think you MUST mount it low enough to be bolted. Those cleats are designed for use "at the mast" rather than "from the cockpit." It would usually reside just beneath a mast winch.

If you're planning to just pull on it from the cockpit when setting the main halyard, please recognize that you've switched from shear loading ... to occasional (or partial) tension loading. Methinks this is not recommended for sheet metal screws. In such a case, attaching it with bolts is mandatory.

Well, if you don't leave the mast raising gear installed all the time, here's a real simple method:

Mount a block to the mast foot bracket, where the mast raising gear bolt goes through. That pulls the halyard nearly straight down, which nearly eliminates any effect it could possibly have on mast rotation. In fact, its only off (from straight down) by a matter inches, and that over a ~30' span... I know from personal experience, than it does NOT stop the mast from rotating fully...

I also mount a block at the stanchion base, directly across from the mast foot, in that loop where the baby stays go. From there, the halyards come back to the cam cleat originally designed for the jib sheets.

To mount the blocks, I just used Home Depot Stainless snap links. Its real simple and doesn't require any 'special' gear...

The jib sheets go straight to Bill@boats4Sail's EZcleats (which are basically cam cleats, with a fairlead, swivel mounted on the genoa track).

With my setup, there is no drilling, etc... Nothing that isn't completely reversible, etc... I like simple mods like this...

I installed the Harken after looking at AYA16'S Boat ( my boat is close to his at the mast up storage) This was a simple mod and it works very well. I think almost all the Macs in the storage have done this 15 min mod. I am very satisfied with the performance no more going up to the mast to raise the sail ( of course you need sail slides which I also copied from aya16) good sailing Phil

I use the larger metal one its more robust.
You can buy a spacer at west marine that will angle to cam cleat part down some deg. but I dont have a problem poping the cleat out at all.
I used sheet metal screws to attach it (4) I think. Because there is only upward pressure on the cleat I think the sheet metal screws work fine.
That reminds me we have to fix one of Jettas.

Mike,
I'd have zero concern about the static load caused by the cleat, or by a snap upwards to release the cleat. But if you're pulling aft from the cockpit to raise and load the halyard, doesn't that load a 45-deg tension strain on the sheet metal? It's the loads on those sheet metal screws while raising the mainsail (from the cockpit) that would cause concern for me.

I don't believe in using the winch for raising the mainsail, but that would be especially nerve-wracking.

Fortunately, the risk is small - dropping just the mainsail, not the mast. A Gulf coast 26X owner was raising his mast when the jib halyard pulled the port mast cleat off (sheet metal screws pulled loose, shear loaded, not tension. This dropped his mast, destroying the sliding hatch and the mast.

Frank I see what your getting at and because the swivel turns it side ways and there are 4 screws holding it the load is to the side. But even if it
becomes a problem its easy enough to get nuts and bolts in there..
But after a year I dont see any strain. But Ill watch it close.