1,000 posts on Sailing Anarchy

[Don T]

Hello:
OK, I just have to dispel the myth that water ballast does not work until it's above the waterline. We have had a thread on this before. If the so-called experts at sailing anarchy continue to express this as a fact, it tells me how much they really know on the subject.

Water ballast has mass. It is the center of this mass (center of gravity) being pulled off center to the center of bouyancy that gives the righting moment. Lead is much denser than water so more mass is pulled off center per degree of heal than water. Because of it's density more mass can be concentrated lower in the hull (longer lever - lower center of gravity) and along the centerline. So, generally lead ballasted boats heal less and can balance more force from the sails per unit of mass. Force = speed.

In the Mac 26X, we have standing headroom that splits the tank. This forces the forward and rearward tanks to be wider and higher (higher center of gravity - shorter lever). This means more heal is required to get sufficient mass off center. It is one of the reasons the older water ballasted macs sail faster. They have one tank, long and centered in the bottom of the hull. Because of this, the mass is concentrated longitudinally and offsets more quickly per degree of heal. They also require a pop top to be able to stand up inside.

Results:
1. If the mac fills with water the ballast becomes in effective. As the mass of the ballast moves to one side, water of equal density will flow over to offset the mass. Equilibrium is reached and no righting moment is exerted. There will be a righting moment (small) caused by the floation which is high in the boat so all of the "denser than water" mass is lower.
2. Water ballast will not drag the boat down if holed. The ballast and the body of water have the same specific gravity.
3. If the Mac fills with water and the ballast tank is filled with air, the boat will remain on it's side where equilibrium is reached between the bouyancy of the foam flotation and the tank. With the mass of water lower and between.
Lead ballast will exert a righting moment even when flooded because of it's greater density (water displaced to the opposite side has less mass) as long as the boat can stay afloat. It would have to have sufficient flotation foam to offset the lead. This takes a lot of interior space which designers don't want to give up and thats why those boats sink.

[Jack O'Brien]

Anybody thinking about crossing oceans, please see this site:

http://tv-antenna.com/heavy-seas/

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

My guess is he was working on some (possibly post winter storage) motor issue.

[Tony D-26X_SusieQ]

From what I gather here everyone seems to agree that if you fill the cabin with water the Mac will sink rather than sail. Is that the way you all sail the "real" sail boats? With the cabins full of water? Do you get much speed that way? Take this discussion back to your other discussion board and leave this one alone. We don't appreciate your hostility here.

[LCB]

Condesending??????? Patronizing??????Perhaps?

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

I've beaten many a "real" sailboat out in TampaBay with my 26X...but I suppose they did not have "real" sailors at the helm. I've also had my boat out in SCA's where there wasn't another "real" sailboat in sight..

Frankly, I like to hear differring views from people like Schock Therapy and Tripp Gal, in fact, I encourage you guys to even join as members! We all learn from each other and even Schock and Tripp may learn something new on this board... Afterall, a lot of discussion and expertise around here is not focused purely on MacGregor boats.

[Sloop John B]

I agree with Dimitri. Shock isn't rude or spitting at us. He was shell shocked by Frank's claims and came over to see if we were a bunch of disillusioned Franks.

I went through the SA posts. Twig of a mast. Ice coolers having a race. Ect..

Funny, I was over at Grand Bayou Marina in Pensacola looking over the set up for the purpose of hauling over there for a launch. Vast armada of sailing vessels moored in the slips. Out about a hundred yards I spot the tell tale black stripe and windows of a Mac 26. Then I zoom back for an overall vista of the fleet and the Mac's mast is the shortest one. Clearly. God, look at all these big suckers! Even the sloops.

I waddle over to the harbor master and say, I got this Mac Im interested in parking for several days and want to check on parking availability. Doesnt take up much room at all. Its just like that little boat on the end over there.

[Tom Root]

Schock Therapy...........Thank You

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

Schock, I was talking more along the lines of two sailboats going the same direction are in a race...not official racing. I've had plenty of fast times on sailing craft though, on sailboards and lasers. You just can't beat the feeling of being hung out over the water, harnessed to the boom, with your feet in the last aft footstraps of a windsurfer...keeping up with the speedboats, and beating the hobie cats (hobies would beat me in light winds though). In my early 20's, during the first time I lived in Florida (had 10 years in Virginia in between), I used to windsurf the outskirts of thunderstorms to get 30-40 mph winds during the summer when it is typically pretty calm here otherwise. After a couple very near misses, I gave up that bad habit. Those are some thrilling memories though.

Btw, when I was searching for my first cruising sloop about 8 years ago, I looked at a Mac for the first time. It was probably a 25 or a 26S, not sure. But I immediately discounted it as not a "real" sailboat. It was far too flimsy for my liking, and I bought a nice solid O'Day instead. Of course, back then, I knew nothing about Macs..except that I would never buy one. I had no idea about trailerable sailboats nor did I care about taking a sailboat up onto a beach or motoring fast. I had no idea *why* the boat, mast , and rigging was so light. But 7 years and 4 kids later, I traded that heavy keelboat in for a nice light 26X. You already know all the reasons why.

I think you said you have one very young child. You probably already know how your life and attitudes start changing after that...so, who knows what will happen when that child of yours gets older and/or you have some more kids....you might even end up in one of these waterbagos one day

[Mark Prouty]

I just curious about one of the first claims on Frank's website:

She planes and her manufacturer says she is capable of reaching speeds above 17 MPH under sail.

I have a Melgas M20. A scow boat. Its sitting in my backyard now in disrepair. I haven't sailed it in a couple of years. I could get that thing on a broad reach with a good wind and she would really take off planing. An exhilarating experience.

The Mac has a flat bottom a little like the M20. I can see the possibility that it would plane in a similiar manner. Has anyone acheived this. What is the fastest anyone has ever gotten a Mac under sail.

M20

[Tony D-26X_SusieQ]

It appears that I owe an appology to a few people here. I did not read the entire thread the other night and jumped to conclusions a little too quickly. I just went to that heavy seas link and thought this was another one of those threads that take extreme sea examples to try and prove that the Mac is not seaworthy when a Mac wasn't even involved. Anyway I sincerely appologise and will read what is really being said before reacting in the future.

[Chip Hindes]

There was a picture in Sail magazine a few months ago of a Melges pulling a water skier. Planing boats and cats not subject to the speed limits of displacement boats and are certainly capable of some pretty high speeds under sail.

However, for a reality check, note that the Mac is already easily overpowered in a stiff breeze. If you want to go fast, you don't reef when the wind comes up. You keep all the sail up, you hike out, keep the boat as flat as you can and go faster. You can do this in a Melges, you can't in a Mac.

I've hit seven knots regularly, eight knots occasionally, by GPS, both reefed and unreefed. Others have claimed nine knots; I have no reason to doubt this. But 17 mph? In the real world, I think not.

Has anybody other than Frank ever seen "the manufacturer's claim" that the Mac can hit 17mph?

[Tom Root]

Chip,
Hee. Hee, no, I know of no one who has ever acheived this speed! Double digits are unobtainable for any period of time IMHO! I do want to run a spinnacker, and feel this will be the only time my boat will ever squeek out a higher speed than the 8 MPH sustained, that I have been successful with so far. Having raced on other X boats, with some very good sailors, and had the gunnels fully wetted etc., I think this a very elusive dream! I have invited F.M. down here to San Diego to show me how to race this yacht, and win some races. Or, even post his true numbers, including race results, but to no avail!

I just look at F.M., as someone who is overly obsessed with his boat, and truly thinks it is the best thing since peanut butter! I too love my Mac, as most of us here do, but I do understand it's limitations, while appreciating it's capabilities! It's NOT a race rocket, nor a blue water/extended cruiseing type boat. With shoreline close at hand (max 50 miles) and not too severe weather conditions, along with a provisions that can be resupplied at least weekly, it can achieve more than any boat in it's price range....that's a fact! And I can see no reason to use this boat in any other manner, but it is not an end-all boat with endless possiblilities....that is truly absurd....but again, no amount of facts will ever convince F.M. of this it appears! Oh well, fantasy has it's place also....

[craiglaforce]

Page 9 of the 26X brochure says... The 26's light weight and its powerboat underbelly allow the boat to get up on top of the water and plane in heavy winds. In such conditions, these boats have exceeded 17 mph under sail.

All I can say is they have to prove it to me. 8.5 mph was my max and it only occured in high winds, no reef, boom almost dragging in the water for a 30 second interval on a beam reach (ballast in of course).


Now if the boat was unballasted, empty, had 2 expert sailors hiked out in harnesses, and a 100 lb expert helmsman then maybe I could see it planing over 10 mph, but even then I doubt anything close to 17 mph is possible. Maybe if it was going over Niagara Falls or downstream ina 10 mph current. Maybe.

Maybe Roger will take us out in an X and show us how to get 17 mph under sail if we ask nicely.

[Chip Hindes]

You'd think if it were actually true Roger would have a video of such a thing. He could put it right after the part about towing with a Taurus.

Tom, I hope you're not disappointed. I have no firsthand experience in such matters, but I was under the impression most boats are faster on a reach than downwind, even if the downwind run is with a spinnaker.