Roger's new head sail furler " Any Pics" !

[bscott]

Terry--when I spoke to the sales guy at Mauri he said they would have to ship by truck as the foil was rather stiff and heavier than the CDI.

He quoted me $75 shipping.

When I FEDEX'd my CDI to Houston it barely made the size limit.

[Terry]

bscott,
I was told it was flexible, especially for trailer sailors and that it ships in sections.

[mikelinmon]

I think the SF700 is the way to go, for the reasons stated. I'm getting close to pulling the trigger on a genoa, and would strongly consider the SF 700 to have the ability to change between jib & genny. I still think that getting uv protection is a good idea, just to save some time, not having to take the sail down every time. I'm not too enthused about dual forestays. Just think it's probably more trouble than it's worth, with additional lines to deal with, more hassle with rig/derig and carrying the weight of and extra sail/furler on that second forestay i.e. additional windage and weight aloft.. not a good thing on a windy day.

Question for those of you who researched the sf700. What's the deal with sanpping it on your forestay? Is it a two piece luff that snaps in place? If so, I'm a bit concerned about its overall strenght vs a one piece desing. Not sure what the benefit would be, since sliding the forestay cable into the furling luff is a one-time deal. Perhaps someone can enlighten me.

Cheers,
Leon

I tested the snapfurl for MacGregor and found: too many parts, to trailer the hook up requires extra hands, You can change sails better with SnapFurl than CDI but to get extra reefing better than CDI you must get the furler with a top and bottom swivel not the economy version. If trailering is not a consideration, look at the somewhat pricey Harken which needs the bottom & top swivel also (which also has many loose parts to deal with when lowering mast). It takes up less room at the tack than SnapFurl
If trailering the Mac, Roger's new furler is the best one, not enough better to trade up from an existing CDI. If $$ is no consern and you don't need to lower mast, I'd get the Harken with top and bottom swivel about $1,000 and your present genoa is #4 luff tape, Harken and Snapfurl are #2 costing about $250 to change!
Mike Inmon

[bscott]

Something is not right---according to the info from Mauri's web site, the CF700 is a #5 tape. The CF 500 uses a #5 tape. The CF500 and the CF700 both have a top swivel and a torlon ball bearing drum. Both require a 3/16-7/32 forestay. My understanding was (from the Mauri sales guy) the CF700 is a #6, the CF500 is #5 both with a 5/32 to 7/32 forestay.

The info that Terry got from Schaeffer said the CF700 has a #6 luff grove.

Mike Inmon said #2 luff grove

Doyle and Kelly-Hanson say the foresail has a #6 luff tape

Mike Inmon said a #4 luff tape

The two piece foil is flexable, interlocking, and snaps together. Don't know how it is shipped.

OK, so what is the real deal

[delevi]

Schaefer's web site says the 700 uses #6 tape, which is what Mac headsails use. It will require a change in forestay cable to 5/32" or 3/16". Mike, I don't quite understand the bottom swivel for reefing. If it isn't required for regularl furler operation, and the furler is rated as a reefing furler (all Schaefer's furelrs are) then what's this extra swivel part?

Leon

[Terry]

OK, so what is the real deal

The real deal is that one can get a CDI for aprox. $300 less than the cheapest Schaefer Snapfurl. I would like to know how much Rogers' new one costs. For now, I still cannot dismiss the Snapfurl for its' advantages over the others dispite the higher cost. It is #6 luff and 5/32 stay and since I still have hank-ons I am still on the hook for luff conversion either way. I can justify the genoa conversion because it is a $700.00 sail and I would only use it in lighter wind conditions, but the jib sail requires a bit more evaluation because it is only a $400.00 sail and it may be better to just relpace it with a quality sail w/#6luff and sell the oroginal as a hank-on. The reason I am thinking along this line is because I need a good excuse to replace the POS OEM mainsail which is starting its' 5th season soon. I see Todd from BWY uses a CDI on his high performance Pearla Noir, go figure. But then Leons' boat ranks right up there too and if I spent what he has I would go for the Schaefer Snapfurl CF-700 without hesitation, I may anyway. It is a tough call!

[delevi]

Just for the record, I use the CDI as well. I don't have a problem with luff tension as many have noted to be the issue w/ CDI's internal halyard. You can create luff tension by tightening the tack. One can create a 3:1 purchase by looping a line from the jib tack and the schackle of the furler. It is static tension, so it doesn't ever get relieved unless the sail comes off the furler. Honestly, I don't think I would mess with it, even if I had a furler w/ external halyard. Luff tension should be tight but not too tight. Beyond that, you're at the mercy of the furling foil's shape. This would happen on any furler and the only way to control it is with running backstays. The SF700 sounds like an excellent unit but from looking at a piece of the luff at a boat show, my hunch is that it isn't quite as flexible as they make it out to be. Certainly less flexible than the CDI, which may present a problem for rigging/de-rigging. I'm also a bit concerned with some of Mike's comments about all the additional hardware and how parts can get lost in the drink. The one major disadvantage to the CDI, and therefore a huge advantage to SF700 is swapping sails. Major PITA on the CDI. I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on a pentex genoa from Kelly Hanson. One thing that will be important for me is the ability to change from genny to jib. I'll try to make a workaround solution on the CDI, perhaps implementing different shackles, and possibly a small block & tackle system w/ jam cleat at the tack. Also plan on spraying the luff w/ sailcoat. I'll post progress as things develop.

Leon

[They Theirs]

Nice Post Terry; You’ve on coarse… Dump the marginal CDI-system Capt!

Everyone knows how primitive and poor performing the CDI system.

***If you must…go with a furling system, purchase one with a head swivel, allowing foresail changes and adjustable luff tension for conditions.

Another Choice… the Harken wire luff drum and swivel roller furling…(no reefing) like many new performance sail plans offered by today’s small boat manufacturers… for example the ‘Rocket22’

PS…BWY Sells CDI …. CDI is a ‘Marginal System’ at best.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Delevi wrote:
Just for the record, I use the CDI as well. I don't have a problem with luff tension as many have noted to be the issue w/ CDI's internal halyard. You can create luff tension by tightening the tack. One can create a 3:1 purchase by looping a line from the jib tack and the schackle of the furler. It is static tension, so it doesn't ever get relieved unless the sail comes off the furler. Honestly, I don't think I would mess with it, even if I had a furler w/ external halyard. Luff tension should be tight but not too tight. Beyond that, you're at the mercy of the furling foil's shape. This would happen on any furler and the only way to control it is with running backstays. The SF700 sounds like an excellent unit but from looking at a piece of the luff at a boat show, my hunch is that it isn't quite as flexible as they make it out to be. Certainly less flexible than the CDI, which may present a problem for rigging/de-rigging. I'm also a bit concerned with some of Mike's comments about all the additional hardware and how parts can get lost in the drink. The one major disadvantage to the CDI, and therefore a huge advantage to SF700 is swapping sails. Major PITA on the CDI. I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on a pentex genoa from Kelly Hanson. One thing that will be important for me is the ability to change from genny to jib. I'll try to make a workaround solution on the CDI, perhaps implementing different shackles, and possibly a small block & tackle system w/ jam cleat at the tack. Also plan on spraying the luff w/ sailcoat. I'll post progress as things develop.

The marginal CDI system allows ‘only static luff tension’…”The Jib Halyard adjusts luff tension on respectable furling systems…..
The headsail luff tension ‘must’ be relieved at the end of the days sailing. Leaving luff tension applied is common mistake…don’t do it!

The Preload ‘Forestay Tension’ apprlied with the upper and lower shrouds on a powersailor…forstay tension can be increased with the adjustable backstay on the ‘X’ or ‘M’ with custom installed running backs A Furling system…with its windage and weight aloft ‘increases’ the unavoidable forestay sag, which adds to the unavoidable headsail deep draft, even more when reefed. Costly ‘flat-cut’ custom manufactured loft sails for roller furling can help. Deep draft/belly sails will not perform, increase the boats tendency to round up in a breeze, add to the powersailor’s marginal tacking problems….

The hanked on headsail will perform and point better sailing on the wind. The Genoa is a light air sail on a powersailor, and perform poorly when reefed. The wide chainplates, spreaders, and shrouds, ruin the sheeting angle for an overlapping genoa headsail, the boats ability to point and sail on the wind is compromised.

Stepping the mast on a trailer sailor is ‘immensely easy with a standard forestay’ (NO-Furling) Hanked on sails perform much better, enhanced by adjustable luff tension from a ‘jib halyard’.

Adjustable jib lead blocks from the cockpit are a worthy investment. Stick with the standard headstay, and only purchase a genoa for light air sailing. MacGregor factory sails are budget sails of generic design for light air sailing, failing quickly with regular use, blowing-out in heavy air.

Purchase some quality loft sails for the area and type of sailing you enjoy.

Those tiny ‘CDI’-shackles with tiny little pins…..cheap stuff….



How It Works: To furl the jib, pull the furling line and the sail rolls up around its own luff.
To un-furl, uncleat the furling line and pull the jib sheet.

[delevi]

A Furling system…with its windage and weight aloft ‘increases’ the unavoidable forestay sag, which adds to the unavoidable headsail deep draft, even more when reefed.

Does this look like a drafty, sagging jib?




pointing approx 35 degrees apparent in 12-15 kts wind.

Those tiny ‘CDI’-shackles with tiny little pins…..cheap stuff….

True, but same can be said for all the rigging on the Mac. Bottom line, it does the job.

I just don't see how added halyard tension can make that much of a difference, provided you have appropriate pre-set tension on the sail's luff within the furler luff. The luff will still sag somewhat with the wind, so the running backstays would be needed for optimum performance, regardless of which furling system you use. BTW, it is a fairly simple mod. Also, I would completely avoid any furler which doesn't allow for reefing. This is a huge advantage to having a furler.

PS. Genny is on her way. I may sing a different tune once I go through a few sail swaps on the CDI... we'll see. If I didn't have a furler, I would likely buy the SF700, however, having invested $600 in the CDI, which does a very respectable job, I don't yet see a need for a change.

Leon

[They Theirs]

Surely were aware of a furlers harmful weight aloft and significant effect on the headsail shape and performance,
further compromising a powersailor well known problems sailing to weather.

Two Years ago….no running back or self tending jib

Delevi wrote:
They Theirs I must give credit where credit is due. I had a chat with Jeff at Arena Yacht Sales (on a different topic,) who in my book is a Mac & overall sailing expert. He is a very experienced and knowledgeable sailor & pilot, and knows the Mac inside out. I asked about a hanked jib vs RF. He concurred with your point that the hanked jib will outperform the RF jib every time, due to the sag in the forestay. The weight, though not much, just makes a huge difference and it doesn't matter how tight your rig is. The problem can be significantly alleviated with a backstay, however, which will narrow the performance gap, but the hanks still get the edge.

Halyard tension increases luff tension which flattens the foresail and pulls the draft forward. The Jib Halyard …like you said…not too tight or too loose… changes with point of sail and conditions… it is ‘NOT’ a set it once and good for all sailing conditions

Unavoidable CDI Furler Headstay Sag




we can see a little luff… but cannot tell if there is any sagging?

Delevi Posted:
Funny thing is the forestay still has plenty of bounce. I'm sure the cable is tight, but the furled jib must really weigh more than my old stock jib. I suppose any furler will have some play as well, since... well it has to furl. I'll see how she sails this weekend. I'm wondering if the 1/8" forestay cable is too light for my heavier RF jib.

The reason I did this is to get the forestay tight. My new jib has been experience much flutter, even with the cars all the way aft. I end up having to sheet it much harder than needed to get rid of the flutter. Having talked to the sailmaker, the advice I got was to tighten the furler halyard, take up some leech and foot line and tighten up the forestay. I did all this, but the only way to get the forestay tighter would be to tighten the upper shrouds, since my turnbuckle was already cranked down to the max to remove mast rake.

Hopefully this rig with enough running backstay tension and having tightened up the furling halayard on the jib as well as the leech & foot lines will eliminate the flutter.

I think the consesus is that the jib is superior upwind and on every other point of sail in wind seeds 12 knts+ thus, overall is the better sail to have

I feel like I have just about done that, but sure didn't buy my boat bare. Around $35k out the door, and probably another $10k in sails, keel, rudders, hardware and other goodies. So that's $45k for a supped up Mac Oh yeah, that's $45k without any canvas and no autopilot.

[beene]

Gee Leon, sure was nice of you to give PERMISSION to TT to post your pictures.

If not, at least he apologized for using them WITHOUT YOUR PERMISSION...... right

Oh well, we can't all be GENTLEMEN can we

G

[beene]

Surely were aware of a furlers harmful weight aloft and significant effect on the headsail shape and performance,
further compromising a powersailor well known problems sailing to weather.

Two Years ago….no running back or self tending jib

Delevi wrote:
They Theirs I must give credit where credit is due. I had a chat with Jeff at Arena Yacht Sales (on a different topic,) who in my book is a Mac & overall sailing expert. He is a very experienced and knowledgeable sailor & pilot, and knows the Mac inside out. I asked about a hanked jib vs RF. He concurred with your point that the hanked jib will outperform the RF jib every time, due to the sag in the forestay. The weight, though not much, just makes a huge difference and it doesn't matter how tight your rig is. The problem can be significantly alleviated with a backstay, however, which will narrow the performance gap, but the hanks still get the edge.

Halyard tension increases luff tension which flattens the foresail and pulls the draft forward. The Jib Halyard …like you said…not too tight or too loose… changes with point of sail and conditions… it is ‘NOT’ a set it once and good for all sailing conditions

Unavoidable CDI Furler Headstay Sag




we can see a little luff… but cannot tell if there is any sagging?

Delevi Posted:
Funny thing is the forestay still has plenty of bounce. I'm sure the cable is tight, but the furled jib must really weigh more than my old stock jib. I suppose any furler will have some play as well, since... well it has to furl. I'll see how she sails this weekend. I'm wondering if the 1/8" forestay cable is too light for my heavier RF jib.

The reason I did this is to get the forestay tight. My new jib has been experience much flutter, even with the cars all the way aft. I end up having to sheet it much harder than needed to get rid of the flutter. Having talked to the sailmaker, the advice I got was to tighten the furler halyard, take up some leech and foot line and tighten up the forestay. I did all this, but the only way to get the forestay tighter would be to tighten the upper shrouds, since my turnbuckle was already cranked down to the max to remove mast rake.

Hopefully this rig with enough running backstay tension and having tightened up the furling halayard on the jib as well as the leech & foot lines will eliminate the flutter.

I think the consesus is that the jib is superior upwind and on every other point of sail in wind seeds 12 knts+ thus, overall is the better sail to have

I feel like I have just about done that, but sure didn't buy my boat bare. Around $35k out the door, and probably another $10k in sails, keel, rudders, hardware and other goodies. So that's $45k for a supped up Mac Oh yeah, that's $45k without any canvas and no autopilot.

[Terry]

If I was in Leons' place I would strongly consider ROI (return on investment) Given, an already spent $600.00 for a CDI which can be had for $400.00 & change today, (an instant $200.00 loss) and what it can be sold for to put towards a CF-700 purchase @ min $714.00 plus shipping the ROI does not justify the added expense. Strange how roller furlers have dropped in price, the Schaefer started out @ $1400.00 & change but can now be had for half that ditto for the CDI, it was a $1000.00 option in 2003 when I first got my boat so I went without, and today it is less than half that, kind of flies in the face of "marine label". It seems my going without for 5 years worked in my favor price wise but perhaps not convenience wise, in any event I now have the hindsight to make a more informed decision.
ROI is an important factor for me, it is the reason I have a Macgregor in the first place, living north of the 49th a trailerable makes more sense, so does a small boat, I am lucky if I get a 6 month season, usually it is less. If I already had a CDI I would keep it, I have not read any negative reviews from owners of it on other sites, but then I have not read anything negative on Scheafer or Harken either, they all seem to satisfy the purchaser in the end. It is more a matter of what works for you at the time. If I had a choice I might remain with hank-ons as they are not really that bad, but I no longer have a choice, health issues are forcing me to look hard & long at the convenience of a roller furler.

[delevi]

TT,

The two examples you post show difference in headstay sag. One had the runners engaged, the other didn't, thus the difference. Also note the foot of the mainsail in the draftier version. Outhaul wasn't cranked down to flatten, since the wind was moderate and some draft was desirable.

Can't dispute what was said in the past about hanks vs furler, but I think this is old-school and no longer applies.


This boat uses a RF genoa. Oh yeah... it happens to be the world's fastest monohull. Maybe those guys know something?

Leon

[waternwaves]

Now me thats a different matter I DO RULE THE ROOST , and I'll prove it very shortly

John??

I am waiting to see pictures....... or do you need a boat show to happen first....

just curious of course...

However, we do have an open guest suite the week/end of the seattle boat show....

If you just have to have a place to park while you wait for the weather to improve.....