alcohol or propane stove?

[MadMacX]

I have Origo cooktops in both of my boats and love them. Clean, odorless and they throw off just about as much heat as propane I had in my camper. I use HD denatured alcohol in both units and have never had a problem. The one in my cruiser is an electric/alcohol unit and it works great. I still use my Magma on the rail for steaks, chops and burgers, but the Origo is used for all side dishes. BTW, I purchased the single burner Origo for my Mac on e-bay for under $100.00, new in the box.

Pat

[Kelly Hanson East]

Jim - your scenario of having a leaking propane tank below decks is one I have considered, having experienced this on shore.

Since even with a valve failure, a 1 pound propane tank takes about 2 minutes to vent, you can quickly carry it up top and heave it overboard. You might perhaps spill 10 percent of the contents if you take 10 seconds to do this.

10 percent would be about 50g of propane, which might cause a small fire, but isnt going to blow you up.

Since your fire extinguisher is readily accessible while you are cooking, you can quickly put out such a small fire.

The scenario where a 1 pound container has a complete failure and dumps the entire contents onto an electrical panel is left to the paranoid..

[ROAD Soldier]

If you can afford it this is the way to go. Has no down side except price.
http://www.scanmarineusa.com/wallas_stove_85DU.pdf
Lucky I bought my used and it had an older model in it. Use litterly cups of fuel running all night. Was down at Pirate Sail in Cape lookout NC and it got down in the low 40s at night and I could only run it at the lowest setting because it keeped it that warm in there while wearing just underware.

[Kelly Hanson East]

That brings up another safety issue. There is no way I would sleep at night with any kind of open flame on board - between fire and CO hazard, that is just not for me.

I would rather bundle up - given you are on water at 0C or higher, decent cold weather bags designed for -20, 30C on land will keep you warm without snuffing you out like a light...

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

Remember, the Wallas stoves cannot be installed in an M with the sliding galley. They require a fixed vent from the fire box out the side of the boat. In an X this is easy to do, but not in an M. Usually in an X the vent is located just below the galley countertop so there is no exposed piping at all inside the boat.

Lately in M boats BWY has been installing the Wallas furnaces for heat only and is using Butane stoves.

[ROAD Soldier]

I have a smoke detector that has it own batteries and a carbon Monoxide Detector that runs off the house batteries. All in a little 26x boat that if anyone goes off will even wake my hard of hearing (from working on turbine helicopters for 25years) butt up. When you are at anchor the boat always faces into the wind so there is no chance of any of those things coming in from the position of the chinney. Also with the wallas there is no open flame.

[ROAD Soldier]

Duane wrote

Remember, the Wallas stoves cannot be installed in an M with the sliding galley. They require a fixed vent from the fire box out the side of the boat. In an X this is easy to do, but not in an M. Usually in an X the vent is located just below the galley countertop so there is no exposed piping at all inside the boat.

Wrong there is a flexible pipe that is easy to disconnect from the pop up smoke stack that when closed lets nothing in including water. This is provided you run it to the ceiling and not the sides of the boat like some people do for ascetic looks inside the boat. I am a functional guy not a model so the pipe doesn’t bother me.

[MD Dunaway]

Don't underestimate the effect of some propane in an enclosed space like a boat. A Yahoo search of("boat explosion" propane leak) produces 3,880 results. I only looked at the first 5 that looked relevant, but they were all different locations and dates. I don't know how much propane it takes.

[ROAD Soldier]

You are right propane is ok in a RV but in a boat it is extremely dangerous. Propane is heavier then air so it will fall not rise which means it will sit in your bilge area until the first spark of any kind comes along and boom. Propane is very explosive and makes more heat the Compressed Natural Gas (CMG). However CMG rises because it is lighter then air which makes it safer on a boat then propane. So if you don’t use alcohol (which adds moister to the already humid air) and you can’t afford a diesel/kerosene stove like a Wallas then please for your own safety go with CMG. Other option is going electric stove heater if you have a quiet Honda generator at the back of the boat by the engine outside at night with bow into the wind.

[ROAD Soldier]

I ment CNG not CMG boy am I getting tired.

[kmclemore]

OK, so I'll jump in here and harken back to the past to refresh your memories, because we've had this discussion I don't know how many times. To quote a previous post of mine....

================================================================
Might want to check previous discussions here:

http://macgregorsailors.com/phpBB/viewt ... 859#111859

http://macgregorsailors.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6909

http://macgregorsailors.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=449 (Ed. note: This one is actually a survey of the members on this exact topic, which I first started in April 2004!)

And from the first link, this may be helpful:

Natural gas, hydrogen (from battery charging), methane, ethylene and acetylene are all lighter than air and will eventually dissipate from a boat. This is easy to remember if you learn the acronym "HEMAN":

Hydrogen
Ethylene
Methane
Acetylene
Natural Gas

Nearly all other flammable gases are heavier. So, propane, butane (and other liquefied petroleum gases, aka LP or LPG), propylene, methylacetylene-propadiene (MAPP), benzene and gasoline are all heavier than air and have the potential to settle in low areas like the bilge, unless you have a forced-ventilation system to remove them.

Now, in answer to your question, I do believe that if used in a safe manner, you can use a propane stove on-board. IMHO, the key safety bit is to install, remove and store your propane *outside* the boat - I do it in the aft cockpit so that any fumes will blow away or settle and run out the transom. Once the bottle is installed and checked for leaks (smell) then you can take it below and use it. Many folks take extra care and leave the stove in the forward portion of the cockpit sole and cook by standing on the companionway steps, but in my personal opinion I feel that may not be necessary, as long as you've checked the stove for leaks before using it.

Now, in reply to the heater question, NO, I would NEVER use a stove as a heater unless it was properly designed as such (like a Wallas stove). If you must use a heater, as noted above one of the better choices may be a catalytic heater which has low-Ox & fall-over shutoff protection, and make sure you place it such that nothing flammable or subject to melting is within 2-3 feet from the front of the heater.
================================================================
And another from DonT back in 2007, with reference to the overall safety of cooking fuels on boats:

Hello,
I was reading on Boats US, CG and the insurance board websites. I'll have to hunt up the pages but here I will paraphrase.

Boats US said propane is the most popular fuel used for cooking aboard (last 10years).

Fires:
#1 cause = Electrical, Shore power cords and connections at the top.
#2 = Gasoline, Fuel leaks then handling accidents.
#3 = Space heaters, unattended over cold season.
#4 = unattended open flames like candles.
#5 = Cooking

Last year reported (2005 IIRC), there were 3 incidents of propane fires and no explosions. They attributed this to the required safety design of propane equipment. The cooking fires involved grease with even distribution among the fuels. When propane explodes, however, it is catastrophic with loss of life. It only gets used when people are aboard. I can't remeber the actual figures so I'll have to find them. Of course this includes sail and powerboats so naturally those weekend warrior accidents dominate the figures.

On Edit:
US statistics 2005 (from USCG website)
12,942,414 registered boats.
491 drowning fatalities - 426 were not wearing PFD's (only of registered boats)
141 fuel fires & 57 "other"
Sailboats = 5 fuel fires & 3 "other" Only 36 injuries total for 2005 - 5 were hyperthermia.
PWC = 11 fuel fires - 1007 injuries

You have to read through a 48 page document to find it. The data is sorted and catagorized a bunch of different ways, very interesting.

[kmclemore]

You are right propane is ok in a RV but in a boat it is extremely dangerous. Propane is heavier then air so it will fall not rise which means it will sit in your bilge area until the first spark of any kind comes along and boom.

Theoretically, yes, you are correct - if you dump enough propane into a boat it can indeed explode.

However, I would dispute that in actual practice the use of propane on a boat is 'extremely dangerous'. Past actuarial data from marine insurance companies shows that very, very few accidents occur because of propane explosions. In fact, given the vast amount of boats that use propane versus the minute few that actually do have an issue, it's virtually none. If you have evidence to the contrary, I'd be most interested.

[ROAD Soldier]

It is not how many times it does happen but what it does when it does happen here is one that happened in my area 2 years ago.
http://www.wvec.com/news/topstories/sto ... e5d71.html

Also here is another thing that happens quite a bit around here.
http://www.wvec.com/news/local/stories/ ... 1bc28.html

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

The vast majority of boats that use propane with no problems have properly installed marine installations. A propane camp stove on the galley counter is not a proper installation and represents a much higher risk than a properly installed marine propane installation.

I think on a larger boat propane is great, but not on a small Mac which has not been designed to use one.

Our favorite next boat, the Gemini 105mc, actually has two propane appliances below in the galley. The two burner stove with oven is one, and the second is the propane refrigerator. Because the boat is a cat and doesn't heel a propane fridge works great just like in an RV. Both however are properly installed to marine specs and do not represent a large risk.

[kmclemore]

Even with portable stoves, Duane, you simply almost never hear of one going 'boom'. In fact, when you do it's major news because it happens so rarely.