Water Ballast and -7c (19F)

[Russ]

The following week, A fellow boater came over with a hose, he turned on the hose and let the water flow into the bilge. He turned off the hose, crimped it to trap the air and water flow, unscewed the hose and put that end into the water, a few feet deeper than the hose in the boat. He un crimped the hose and it started to siphon out the water. It took a few hours, but it works.

You just have to find a way to get the hose into the ballast vent hole and get flow. You will have to break a hole in the ice behind the motor so you can get the hose end lower than the bottom of the hull.

Interesting. But I'm not sure how that works.

[c130king]

I used to have an old 30`wooden boat. with a bad leak. The first few weeks I owned the boat the bilge pump broke. IT took us an hour to bail it out with buckets. The following week, A fellow boater came over with a hose, he turned on the hose and let the water flow into the bilge. He turned off the hose, crimped it to trap the air and water flow, unscewed the hose and put that end into the water, a few feet deeper than the hose in the boat. He un crimped the hose and it started to siphon out the water. It took a few hours, but it works.

You just have to find a way to get the hose into the ballast vent hole and get flow. You will have to break a hole in the ice behind the motor so you can get the hose end lower than the bottom of the hull.

Good luck..

My pool has been mostly drained as part of the overall winterization process. But if it fills up a little bit due to rain I have to drain some of it out...essentially keep some water in to keep some weight on the pool to keep it from "rising" up any yet keeping the water height below the level of the jets to keep them from freezing. So I do what John stated above with my garden hose. Put the hose in the pool and turn it on to fill up the hose...crimp the hose and dis-connect from the faucet. Then carry that crimped end of the hose down my back yard so that it is lower than the pool...release the crimp and the water starts to flow and works like a suction/siphon and draws water out of the pool...just like siphoning gas.

Works like a charm.

Jim

[John McDonough]

It was 32 years ago when I used the siphon to bail out my ole wooden boat.

I just remebered a better way to siphon water out of the bildge or ballast tank of a boat.
You need 3 hoses and a Y connector. (running water. I hope your water supply is not frozen)
Connect one hose from the supply faucet to a Y connection, connect the 2nd hose at Y connection and place end in ballast vent hole.(or swimming pool) Connect 3rd hose at Y connection and place it in the water, make sure this end is deeper than the bottom of the boat. Simply turn on the faucet and allow water to flow thru the hoses into the ballast tank and into the water. Simply shut off the water at the faucet. the siphon will automatically suck the water out of the ballast tank into the river.

Make sure you have the hoses running as level as possible. No big loops or kinks.

I would guess it takes at least 1 hour to drain the tank.

[seahouse]

Ok – you guys are tooooo polite!

Or somebody’s leg is being pulled here. Maybe mine?

Hey John --I'm thinking that siphoning will only work if the level of the water being siphoned is higher than the water level being siphoned into, regardless of how deep the hose is placed in the water.

The end of the hose doesn’t have to be in the water being siphoned into in most cases, only lower than the level of the water being siphoned. Exception; if the hose is of a very large diameter.

So this will work on a bilge, where the level is quite possibly higher than the outside water, but not on a flooded ballast tank where the water levels are equal, or the ballast level is lower. And if that’s the case, then water would flow INTO the boat through the siphon tube.

Of course you can siphon without the benefit of a hose bib or tap by simply submerging the hose to purge the air in it, and plugging the end with your thumb as you pull it into the lower position. The end result is the same- to start with the hose full.

Hey Dido – around here (Toronto) they keep larger boats in the water all winter by using bubblers. They stop the ice from forming by disturbing the water enough that ice never forms within several inches of the hull. Just pipes under the surface around the circumference with tiny holes in them.

Regards - Brian.

[K9Kampers]

Just got out Mac this Sept, went to get her out of her mooring last weekend but the river marina basin she is in was frozen with a layer of ice, this week the temp got even lower (19f) and the basin is still frozen, my rather worried question is realted to the water ballest, is there a risk it will freeze, expand and crack the ballest compartment ?

Went down to the Marina today, the ice is melting around the boat, however the ice is over 2 inch thick between me and the slipway, hence the reason I have not taken her out of the water. Air temp is around 4c and -1c and night for next few days so hopefully the ice will melt so I can make it to the slipway.
No shore power so heaters out of of the question, just keeping my fingers crossed that I can get her out soon, even the local river acency boat is stuck, so I don't feel quite as stupid...

After Dido's follow-up post, it appears that his initial inquery was based on concerns about being in the position of not being able to retrieve his boat before the weather vs. keeping it in all winter.

After a run of too-cold-to-think-about-sailing days, I covered mine in 30's degree. The following day it is in the spring-like 50's. Aint sailing a bitz!!

[vizwhiz]

Seahouse, you are correct. The water level at the discharge leg has to be lower than the surface of the water where the siphon leg is put in the water being siphoned. That difference in water levels is what drives the siphon effect. It is possible that if the the top of the water in the ballast tank is above the waterline outside, it will begin to siphon. As long as the water level in the ballast tank remains above the water level outside the boat, it will siphon, with the difference in water levels dictating how fast (thus the hour-long time for a 150-gallons).

I would suggest that you can do it a lot quicker with a "drill pump" (Google "drill pump"). It is a Jabsco-style flexible rubber pump like what your outboard uses for cooling water that you change...you put it on a drill and attach garden hoses to the ends...voila - portable pump. Maybe not the fastest, but to be certain it will be faster than a siphon. Wouldn't hurt to have it on board anyway...

Can be bought for less than $10 usually...

[seahouse]

I would suggest that a fast way to purge the ballast would be to use hydraulic leverage to apply pressure through the air bleed hole using something like a vacuum cleaner. (even a 12V one, if line voltage is not available)

The surface area of the water at the air/water interface in the ballast is quite large, so even a slight pressure would exert considerable force because it acts on such a large surface area.

And, of course, this would work up to the point when the water level drops below the top of the hole in the transom. So you would partly close the gate valve as it empties, assuming it closes from the top, and shift weight to the aft end.

-Brian.

[Russ]

Ok – you guys are tooooo polite!

Or somebody’s leg is being pulled here. Maybe mine?

Hey John --I'm thinking that siphoning will only work if the level of the water being siphoned is higher than the water level being siphoned into, regardless of how deep the hose is placed in the water.

Right. That's why I couldn't understand how he got it to work.
Then I got to thinking. Maybe the boat was on the trailer. The exit of the hose would be below the bilge level and the siphon would work.



--Russ

[Trouts Dream]

But then so would opening the ballast valve at that point.

[Dido]

Upadte:

The ice is slowly melting, but we are due to have another cold spell at the end of the week, so Thursday is my only hope of getter her out.
My new question is, if I break the ice as I go, does anyone have experiance of any GRP hull going through 1/2inch ice, do I risk damage to the hull.

The ice in the middle of the marina is 3/4 think but in a massive sheet, my plan is to reverse braking the ise as i go and get to the slip area where the ice has melted and turn her around to load her on the trailer.

Failing that, in the absence on shore power or water I will try the drill pump idea and using a batter drill try and pump out as much ballest as i can.

Thanks for all you help...keep it coming

[Norca]

If you could have a friend on the bow with a long stick to breake the ice as you go.
It's easier to do it this way, and you can get through some pretty heavy ice.
You could also throw something heavy like a sledge hammer down and break it up, just tie a rope on to retrieve
it
There is usually no problem with grp hulls as they are too slippery for thin ice to do any damage from cutting or abration
(I almost cut holes in a wooden boat once by going in 1/8" thick ice for about 200 meters, the thin ice was sharp
as a knife)
I dont think this would be an issue with the hard gelcoat though.

[Russ]

But then so would opening the ballast valve at that point.

I believe he said it was a wooden powerboat. Maybe it didn't have a drain hole and therefore needed a siphon. Or there was thermite in the bilge.


RE: Ice. The above post sounds like good advice. Break it up into chunks and go slow. The glass hull should be okay.



--Russ

[dennisneal]

Dido,

Rather than backing up towards the launch ramp, I would suggest that you go forward:

I would worry about damaging the prop as it slices through ice.

The pointed bow may actually help to break up the ice.

Good Luck!!!

[Catigale]

You cant get thermites in Bozeman - too cold...

(from the Life of Montana Building)

[John McDonough]

I believe he said it was a wooden powerboat. Maybe it didn't have a drain hole and therefore needed a siphon. Or there was thermite in the bilge.
-Russ

A wooden powerboat... I would never own a powerboat. It was a 1931 antique Wooden Sailboat, 30` William F Crosby design, 33` overall length. 42` mast, cutter rigged.

There was no termites in the bilge, termites would only help the boat sink quicker, I discovered that that rot had destroyed the white oak frame and battens.

I was in the process of a total restoration of this beautiful ole wooden boat, when I seen an Ad in Sail magazine (1986) for Roger Macgregors new 26D` water ballast yacht for only $8,0000. I bought the macgregor, to use until I finished the Yacht.. I discovered it was more fun sailing than being a carpenter. All that teak, mahogoney and spruce is still waiting for the next victum..

Dido says he is going to use a battery drill and pump. I hope he gets it out before the big freeze.

IF that dont work, I can assure him that 32 years ago I had bailed out my ole wooden boat with the siphon system. My boat was in the water, I drained the flooded bildge using a hose. It was common practice before electric pumps. Sure beats bailing or manual pumping.

The Roman Empire used siphon systems 2000 years ago to get thier fresh water over the hills and thru the valleys. (until the termites ate the wood pipes)

I also didnt think the siphon would work to drain the bilge water into the river. I was thinking the man who was just trying to help us was a joker, but after about 15 minutes I noticed the water level had dropped a few inches.