Shore Power on the Cheap

[Divecoz]

Hamin If I am reading Beene's post correctly??
He is using a 30 amp cord.. he now has a proper Marine Grade twist lock..( good so far) I suggested he change out, the common 3 prong female to a GFI with a weather proof box and cover.. GFI Now protects that cord from Ground faults, Duplex to the pedestal. He will still be relying on the " house power " breaker etc etc etc etc ...
I did mention that he needs to grnd the charger and there is or should be a wire designated for just this issue.. I DIDNT discuss rectifiers as they can vary so much.. Many MARINE rectifiers will have that common grnd wire but many I see are RV units and some I looked at ( Cabelas ) didn't have the wire but did have a post.. I dont have a rectifier on my boat at this time..

[Hamin' X]

I actually misread your post Dive and upon review, I see that you were telling beene to use the GFI. My comment about the grounds was because he was not using a GFI and he said that he just plugged in his battery charger, indicating that he is using an automotive type charger. Marine chargers are hardwired and even though an automotive charger might have the case grounded, it might, or might not have the DC negative grounded.

Another thought for folks: I would not depend on the marina wiring to be correct. If your shore power is done properly on your boat, you will be safe. Otherwise, you will be at the mercy of someone else. I won't let that happen, but maybe it's just me.

~Rich

[Divecoz]

Sumner I couldn't agree more.. This is just one of those issues that will be argued about till the cows come home.. I AGREE with Jedi's comment.""The ABYC is a nice club, but what they write are recommendations and not requirements"" Even N.E.C. is not Federal law its Not a National Mandate or Requirement . Though it is By Choice followed and most often required by Most Municipalities.. I am "ONLY" Cert. and Licenced in 7 states as a Res. Com. Industrial, Electrician. ( and I can make errors I am...... human) I am not, nor, do I believe we even have here on this board , a Certified Marine Electrician. BTW both those above Documents have seen numerous changes over the years.. So what do I do if I am confused or questioning an Installation..?? I call my brother . This isn't a "Hobby" for him..He was I will assume pretty good at this stuff , good enough at this stuff at least to be paid ( poorly) as an Electronics and Radio Instructor by the USAF for 3 years and then.... he was then a Res . Com. Industrial Instructor specializing in Transformers, Motor Control and Fire Alarm for 27 (?) Years.. and hes done this ( on the job) as well ... for a living...
Is my 110 A/C bonded? 110 system Grn to the Neg. Side o my 12V D/C system? Yes..
I have faith in his knowledge which was schooled, and tested. BUT to each his own..
His boat has a 110 A/C Breaker Panel but his boat cost over $150,000.00 and he has LOTS of electrical systems on board 10 Times what any of us have. I have a couple GFI Outlets and my battery charger... I use, when I am in the slip my coffee pot..sometimes my cruise air and more often than that I use a cheap box fan sitting over the forward hatch.. That cord is too short to stay plugged in if for some reason it should fall in the water.. Too Short by design..
For my shore power and I have two inputs . I have them both protected by GFI 's first in line.. The primary is accepted and approved .. Twist lock.. Great for the slip the 2nd is a cheap Marino Male plug end and rubber cap and mounted as you would expect Flush with the "Hull" . I proudly showed my brother my 2nd input and he cussed me out.. I said almost nothing. Yes there is a "Potential" for those "Potentially" Exposed prongs to be hot... Lets see, lets test it.. I was tied up at his dock at his home. I used the Marine approved twist lock to feed my boat.. I then saying little to nothing showed him my in line switch used to turn power off to that , Exposed In-Put , and a GFI in line with that.. We tested it. It was indeed HOT 110 v. I stuck my finger in between the prongs and what happened?? Exactly what should happen I tripped the In Line closest to the device.. GFI !!! He still asked Why Did you do this? Because I can plug my boat in... Anywhere in the USA and maybe beyond with either .. That twist Lock or.. a common house hold extension cord and be 100% safe..

Not to throw fuel on the fire, but read Jedi's response to a similar thread here....

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f55 ... 361-2.html

[Divecoz]

No Problem Rich, I misread stuff all the time.. OOppss...
Shore power Pedestals.. we have discussed this numerous times and I think we now, all agree . We need to check them before using them..Rich your as old as I am and we both remember when a good meter could easily cost $400 ( Flukes) heck at that time you could buy 4 tires any size from Sears for under $125 installed!! Now you can buy a meter capable of doing everything my fluke does for UNDER $50!! Eliminate some cutesy stuff that none of us will ever need and they can be had for $10.. Get One and Use it guys..

I actually misread your post Dive and upon review, I see that you were telling beene to use the GFI. My comment about the grounds was because he was not using a GFI and he said that he just plugged in his battery charger, indicating that he is using an automotive type charger. Marine chargers are hardwired and even though an automotive charger might have the case grounded, it might, or might not have the DC negative grounded.

Another thought for folks: I would not depend on the marina wiring to be correct. If your shore power is done properly on your boat, you will be safe. Otherwise, you will be at the mercy of someone else. I won't let that happen, but maybe it's just me.

~Rich

[pokerrick1]

Another thought for folks: I would not depend on the marina wiring to be correct.

Man ain't this the truth - - - when I was in Marina Del Rey I heard the story from original slip owners of the new slips I was in that MDR had miswired the shorepower at a much higher voltage and blew out the electrical systems of the boats that were the first occupants.

Then, when I was in San Filipe, Baje, Mexico on the Sea of Cortez, I was one of the first occupants of the new Gringo Docks. So, expecting that the Mexican Government (builders and owners of the dock) to screw it up, I decided to have my shorepower box tested before I plugged in (remembering MDR and allowing for the fact that the electricians were employees of the Mexican Government), but my voltage was fine.

However, several other boats blew out their electrical systems when they plugged in to voltage 3 or 4 times what it was supposed to be. Of course the Mexican Government made good for the damages - - NOT!

Rick

[Divecoz]

Rick : IM P O here are the possible options for MDR.. and there are only a couple.. 110/220.. doesnt change by magic to 277 / 480.. there are not a whole lot of choices for voltage. There's not some big rheostat sitting in a closet somewhere..
Some Knucklehead ( Unlicensed Unschooled Untrained..) used 2 hots no neutral. . causing 220 V at the ped plug.. Humm No GFI on the ped at One of the Nations Largest Most Expensive Marinas??? Humm That job would be in the San Diego's Jurisdiction?? I can feel rest assured in the FACT that it Wasn't One of My Brothers who wired That Marina. Therefore they got what they paid for..
Mexico same deal..pretty much anyway. I have worked down there too.. Mexico is 110/220 or 277/480 with single pole 4160 line feed before the transformer.. Yea yea yea it can and will be at times higher voltage but none of you guys will ever see it let alone be with arms reach of it.. Now might either of these facilities or both have 110/220 and 277/480 coming down the main dock and for some reason ( stupidity???) some how some way combined those two / 4 voltages in a pedestal on the pier? Hummm its a major NO NO !! ( but there are NEC exceptions to this rule )Maybe.. Maybe if that pedestal is being used as a Junction box for 110/ 220 house power and 277/480 lighting.. ( notice I have not mentioned anything about step-down transformer located on the dock) Mexico? ANYTHING is @#$% !@#$ possible.. In The USA,not too likely ,outside a few southern states

[Catigale]

Another thought for folks: I would not depend on the marina wiring to be correct.

This is the probably the single biggest difference between home and marine wiring. At home, you can all but guarantee the phase and connections on the supply side are correct.

At the marina, you can almost count on either the marina or someone else connected putting current where it shouldnt be, and hence on your wiring.

...and of course home wires dont jiggle at 55 mph, and have salt poured all over them...

[Divecoz]

They would have Rick .. they would have gladly paid you.. No issues . Porfeca.. Citizens Advocate for Mexico ..Think of a love child between Ralph Nader ACLU and Conan the Barbarian.. !!! Private Corps or Government what takes you forever they do in hours.. maybe days..

when I was in San Filipe, Baje, Mexico on the Sea of Cortez, I was one of the first occupants of the new Gringo Docks. So, expecting that the Mexican Government (builders and owners of the dock) to screw it up, I decided to have my shore power box tested before I plugged in (remembering MDR and allowing for the fact that the electricians were employees of the Mexican Government), but my voltage was fine.

However, several other boats blew out their electrical systems when they plugged in to voltage 3 or 4 times what it was supposed to be. Of course the Mexican Government made good for the damages - - NOT!

Rick

[Divecoz]

No Excuse for it to be different. Its not magic and there are only so many possibilities to Screw Up..It often depends on .. where you reside thats the difference.. or can be..

Another thought for folks: I would not depend on the marina wiring to be correct.

This is the probably the single biggest difference between home and marine wiring. At home, you can all but guarantee the phase and connections on the supply side are correct.

At the marina, you can almost count on either the marina or someone else connected putting current where it shouldnt be, and hence on your wiring.

...and of course home wires dont jiggle at 55 mph, and have salt poured all over them...

[pokerrick1]

Dive;

I have no idea what happened at MDR, that was before my time, but in Mexico maybe the many voltage option availability was because they built a gas and diesel dock next door?????

Rick

[beene]

I actually misread your post Dive and upon review, I see that you were telling beene to use the GFI. My comment about the grounds was because he was not using a GFI and he said that he just plugged in his battery charger, indicating that he is using an automotive type charger. Marine chargers are hardwired and even though an automotive charger might have the case grounded, it might, or might not have the DC negative grounded.

Another thought for folks: I would not depend on the marina wiring to be correct. If your shore power is done properly on your boat, you will be safe. Otherwise, you will be at the mercy of someone else. I won't let that happen, but maybe it's just me.

~Rich

This is all great stuff guys
My charger is not an automotive one.
It is meant for boats
Even has a "go fishing" light check button in the shape of a fish LOL.
Charges 2 batts at once.

Question
How is using a GFI closed in outlet box, all be it water tight, any different than what I am using now?
The 75' 30A generator extension cord is water tight and runs into the cabin.

All DC's are run to circuit breakers, then the batt's
Both Batts have negs tied together
Both running off a standard 1/2/both/off perko

G

[beene]

Hmmmm

Reading further, and thinking a wee bit harder....

I think I get it....

Having an outlet near possible moisture, like a bathroom sink or floating home.....
Always use a GFI in case you need the power tripped at the source.

I will make that switch before I use it again.

Just finished a 4 day stint in a slip on shore power last week.
I have used my config on my mac an my previous boat since '95 nil issues, but that does not mean it was safe.

Thanks again

G

[Highlander]

Cheap,Cheap,

J

[c130king]

Thanks to all you smart EE types for all the great 411...but for those of us that are electrically challenged...

What is the downside of using the "Shore Power on the Cheap" (shore power cable and adapter for 30amp to 15amp...no "installed" shore power system) if all it is being used for is to run things like fans, computers, etc... No battery charger or nothing hooked to boat wiring.

This is the set-up I have...but I haven't actually used it yet. But hope to use it pretty soon.

Thanks again for everything that everybody contributes to this board...

Cheers,
Jim
Sailing on König
Sailing on König YouTube Channel

[Sumner]

....Having an outlet near possible moisture, like a bathroom sink or floating home.....
Always use a GFI in case you need the power tripped at the source....

You don't have to have the GFI by moisture. If the GFI outlet is the first of the circuit and is wired correctly along with the outlets past it then they are all protected.

You can put a GFI in your breaker box at home, but they are kind of expensive the last time I checked when I built our house. Since I'm a big believer in them right below....



....the main breaker box inside the house in my shop I put in....



....the above outlets that are all GFI. They are also the first outlet on each run in the house for all the indoor and outdoor outlets. The breakers are numbered in the main box and give overload protection and the GFI's below them are numbered and there is a floor plan of the house at the box that shows you the different runs and the corresponding breaker/GFI number for the run. If a circuit isn't working look at the floor plan and then at the breaker/GFI for that run and you are back in business.

Using the above every outlet is protected in and out of the house at a cost of about $15 a run if I remember right. You could go back and do this to an existing house, you just wouldn't have the convenience of having the GFI's in one place. The first one might be behind a couch or other piece of furniture, but still maybe worth the effort especially if there are young ones in the house.

You can have situations other than moisture related that could expose you to a lethal shock. I would have at least one as your first outlet on the boat no matter how you wire the boat or what you are using on it and one at the shore power pedestal will all so give you protection going to the boat. I'd still have one in the boat just in case you at sometime, home or on the road, found yourself just using a normal extension cord going to the boat.

People will often say that they don't want them because they can 'nuisance' trip. I have not found that to be the case at all. I've had one trip a couple times, but it is on an outdoor circuit that has had an extension cord going to a pet fence charger where water from rain can get to the extension cord at the house or the charger. Still it does not trip every time it rains, maybe twice in the last year.

Be safe,

Sum

Our Endeavour 37

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Our MacGregor S Pages

Mac-Venture Links