MacGregorSailors.com

The point to the OP being that buying an engine with local service is important

Back in the old days The hardest thing to do was find parts for the outboards, mostly around the area where you use the boat, because that's when most people had trouble pop up. It became clear to lots of folks using their boats over time, that a main source of problems with the outboards, inboards, was points. Those that had car engines in their boats were lucky, because local auto parts, still could be miles from where the boat broke down, would most likely carry the points. People with outboards were not so lucky. Back then most of the smarter guys carried spare points, and other parts, as well as fly wheel pullers to get to them. Just leaving a key on in your boat for to long would fry the points.

Today we have more reliable engines, yet more complicated. Having a dealer close to your house has its advantage to those that are unlucky enough to have an engine that acts up. Still, having a dealer to far away wouldn't stop me from buying a certain brand if I wanted it. I would check say the local merc, yamaha, whatever dealer and see if they would work on my off brand engine if there were a problem. Any dealer with a good plan would work on other brands of motors, if they were smart. Parts today, can be found easy on the net, and have them shipped to you within a couple days almost anywhere in the world.

Having a dealer for your outboard near by, can also get people into a false sense of security too, first of all, not all dealers carry all parts, so they have to be ordered more times than not, but the reality too is most of us will have problems with the outboard when we are using the boat, not when it sits at home. A whole vacation can be ruined, for want of a minor part if you dont have a spare, or the knowledge to try and fix the problem.

catigale, didnt you just find and fix a burnt connector on your engine, before a major trip? The fact that you hunted down the problem, fixed it and were good to go, was the key to you having a good time later. If that would have happened while you were on vacation, you would have found and fixed it then too. Most of us that have had outboards our whole life have had some things pop up and dealt with it without a dealer's help while on vacation.

My point in all this, is most everyone with a new outboard, or older one, will never have to see a dealer for repair or maintenance, if they have the knowledge to do basic repairs, basic maintenance, and have the spare parts available on hand a head of time. We all should have a spare water pump impeller, spark plugs, thermostat, and fuses on board. Plus the tools to do those jobs. Only a very small percentage of people will have problems beyond our ability's and tool wise.

The etec is not a problematic engine, in fact its one of the most reliable engines out there. As far as having software, or other exotic tools to work on all engines with fi is a plus for us, we cant screw up the motor, messing with its brain. The dealer when he installs your engine does not go into the mapping software, he only programs the motor through the gauge that comes with the engine, as with my merc, all settings are done through the gauge, and that can be done by the owner too, with out a lap top. Its all in the owners manual on how to do that.

Just because a motor starts missing, doesn't mean the computer is whacked out, we still need to check the other sources, like plugs or sucking air from the fuel hose. By checking the basic stuff, before we panic and run off to the dealer for help, can save lots of cash. Although we are used to having our cars, when they have a hiccup, running for a place of repair, we sort of have to have a different mind set with our boats. Those far away secluded areas we go to to get away from the hustle bustle of life, are most likely not going to have professional help if you have a problem there. We must be somewhat prepared, to deal with these problems ourselves.

There are only so many things that can go wrong, with a certain problem, knowing and understanding how things work, most every thing can be fixed by the owner, if we get the mentality that the motor is way to complicated, because EFI, or the computer is sitting on the engine, Its easy to say its to complicated for us to do anything. We are still dealing with an internal combustion engine, that will have the same problems as older non efi engines have. In fact the EFI takes away a ton of older problems people used to have with clogged carburetors, and jetting, as well as oily fouled plugs.

You can get a hold of software that will change the mapping, or trouble shoot potential problems, but then what, if all you had was a bad plug the software isn't going to fix the problem, or may not even find the problem. If your a whiz with a computer, but don't know how to turn a wrench, or trouble shoot without a computer, your in trouble when you are 25 miles from shore, hook up your computer, tells you you have a bad fi sensor, then what? are we smart enough to open the cowl and find a wire that got loose? Or do we just call it a day, wait till we get home to our dealer to have him fix a loose wire for a couple hundred bucks.

Some things for sure would be out of our control, as far as fixing them, but that would be a very rare thing in my opinion. 3rd world country's use our same engines to make a living, with very little resources for parts or repairs available, and the common tool they use is a hammer. The idea of a boat is to get away from the idea that we need people for anything in life, we want to be self sufficient, independent, toss society aside and relax. That means too, you have to be able to work on your own stuff as much as you can. Nothings free in this world.

Cut that cord we have to the dealer, or lap top, have faith that the company that built your outboard knows what they are doing, and have made you the best that tech can be made, be glad your not changing points, every trip, that you dont have one fouled plug every trip, dont anticipate major problems with out some sign that one is brewing, be brave, trust your stuff, the more you know about your stuff, the better off you are. Fresh gas, replace fuel lines once in a while, change the water pump every couple years, clean the terminals on you battery, keep spare fuses, and enjoy the motor for many many years trouble free, for the majority of us.

Think of the computer on your outboard as the last thing to go, instead look for problems from moving parts or parts that are actually stressed as the engine runs, even loose wires from all the vibration. Make sure you have fresh gas all the time, EFI's like clean filtered new gas to run perfect.
Mike

aya16 I agree with some of your post and disagree with other parts..
BTW.. Still I ask ? Which 50 HP did you own?
I agree that Out boards just dont break down that often.. not for most of us and yes because we actually use them so little and so seldom , bad gas can often be the issue.
I spent a LOT of time in Mexico and being on an island a lot time at Caleta.. The Marina.. Its true in most locations the mechanics wont have even what I have for tools and neither of us will have the computer code readers.. But Parts.. If it was sold in Mexico parts will be available..
Who can do what? Some of us can do a lot and some of us dont feel confident enough to do much more than very little.. We're all different..
"" We all should have a spare water pump impeller, spark plugs, thermostat, and fuses on board. "" well I have 2 out of 4 .. But I have Sea Tow
I have no desire to change out a impeller standing in the water on the beach.. nor a thermostat... Plugs Prop fuses I will and later if I take a REAL journey I will add a few things..Not Now..
Shipping parts almost anywhere in the world? Not as I know it.. There can be Major issues with getting parts...... but NOT in the the parts of the world most of us will ever visit on..... our Mac's..
IMHO.. if your on the water ( big Enough To Sail On) in the USA, in one of these boats .. you had to launch it somewhere???.. chances are pretty good someone will be reasonably close by, who works on Out Board Motors..

The most common problem with FI is the injector. If the engine stops or is erratic it is more than likely a contaminated injector. You will not be able to fix the problem in the field as it requires a bench test and special tools to repair the injector. Not all dealers have the equipment and will try to sell you a new injector. BRP has reformulated their 2+4 Fuel Conditioner to combat the problems associated with E-10 and the dreaded E-85.

An oil fouled spark plug is pretty much a thing of the past on the E-tec because of the oil injection system BUT plugs can fail. If a plug fails, it must be indexed when replaced. My dealer claims they have to install several plugs to get one that indexes correctly. A plug that is replaced in the field and is not indexed will get you home but will not run with full power in that cylinder. If you are not aware of the indexing issue you will have a difficult time trying to solve your lack of performance. BTW we index plugs in Rotax 2 stroke BRP snowmobile engines with different thickness compression gaskets, E-tecs included. The indexing issue does not show up in a computer analysis so it's a head scratcher.

Bob

I know there is a certain amount of brand loyalty in every thing we buy (the need to validate our major purchase decision, of course) but lets face it - the decision tree breaks down into

Performance - where (guess what?) Brand A 90 HP will perform like Brand B 90 HP ...imagine that...

Reliablity - none of use these engines enough to infer a reliability comparison of one brand over another. The data from the manufacturers and fishing fleets is far from the use of 99% of Mac owners, who are working people sailing on weekends.

I suggest the logical decision path is:

1 Pick the HP rated on what performance you need with the increasing HP need list looking like: (move off lake dock, lake plus rivers, loaded cruising, waterskiiing/toys, I want a bigger engine than Billy.....

2 Pick the brand based on the closest service relationship with either your dealer or a known service entity

3 Make 1 and 2 fit your budget of course.

Mac likes to 'hawk' the ETEC as the 'OEM" engine which is a complete falsehood - no such OEM engine exists and this pitch is purely profit driven. The consumer should treat the boat and engine purchases as separate events.

divecoz, I had, have the suz 50bf, 2004 running now on my Boston whaler, awesome engine for that purpose.Not such a good choice for the mac, although the engine is the lightest 4 stroke 50 in its class. runs very good all the time for me, but lacked some ummmph with the mac.

The etec, mac puts on their boats now, is a good choice, best choice they have available out there. As far as weight, small bulk, and will run circles around any other 50, for the simple reason its a 60hp, Its also a very simple engine to maintain, one guy could pull it off the mac in an hour, and drive it to a dealer if needed. I would like to think I had a little to do with their decision on that engine choice, but it doesn't matter, nice choice if you are going to stay in the smaller engine mode.

Indexing the plugs? does that mean gaping them? never heard of anything else to do with the plugs. going on 7 years on my suz 50 and never had an injector problem, My new merc 2 stroke is 3 years old and no injector problems. As far as changing a water pump on a beach, say Catalina if needed, or in a calm cove with the motor tilted in the dingy to do the work, I would do that. But if you dont run the engine out of water, and you change the impeller a couple times in a decade, there shouldn't be any problems with it.

The breaking down issues because the motor isnt run that much over its life, is a little sticky, I believe a motor sitting for months and months will have more problems than one that is used say every month. I dont think e-85 will be much of an issue, If we are forced to use just that, the boat manufactures will have a solution. My engines I have owned over the years all were run 20 years or more, the one I took off the whaler (merc 50 2 stroke) Is still a good runner sitting in my garage now. I changed it because it smokes, burns lots of fuel, and is banned on a lot of lakes, but wanting a bigger motor for the mac, and wanting to keep my whaler, I had a use for the suz 50. The BF 50 will now run a whole week at the lake of fun, and fishing on 15 gallons of gas, couldn't say that about the old merc engine it had.

If injectors were that much of a problem on my new merc, I would just carry a spare or two extra, just like I used to carry points for the olddddddd stuff I used to own. I didnt mention it but yes I do carry a spare prop as well as the hardware to change it, my experience, you carry a spare prop, you never wreck the one thats on the engine.

The computer code reader should be in one of your gauges, even my suz 50 has the flashing light thing for problems, I know it works cause it will flash codes when you first turn the key, yet dont start the motor. It flashes codes for when its time to change the oil too. By the way, to stop the code flashing on the suz, all you have to do is turn the key on, pull the safety lanyard off and pull the safety button out and let it in 4-5 times, it resets the codes.

The dealers bread and butter come from maintenance, and fixing minor problems, sure they do complete rebuilds at times, but for the most part the simple things we can learn will save lots of money, a water pump job is about what 350.00 bucks, we can do the same job for about 35 bucks. It only takes about an hour. By the way I strongly recommend any one that uses their motor in salt water, do that job every two years, not that the pump will be bad, but the engine leg will stick and its a bear to break lose if corroded. When you put it back together grease up the mating surfaces for easy maintenance later.

My experience with working on the outboards come first from my lack of my maintenance, to fixing problems from that, to jumping in there when someone has a problem, I once saw a brand new 300 hp merc outboard get totally submerged at a ramp, The guy was really panicked, I saw the engine wasnt running at the time, and told him we could, should get that engine running right now. His gas tanks had water in them, so I brought my 6 gallon tank from my boat over. While I went to get it I asked the guy to take his spark plugs out. When I got back, we turned the motor over without the plugs and gas for a min. or so, sprayed the whole engine and in the cylinders with wd-40 dried and put the plugs back in, hooked up my gas tank and brrrraaaapp It fired right up, launched the boat (this time with the drain plug in) and he ran the pi$$ out of it, and my gas. The rest of the week This guy was having a lot of fun and waved with a big grin to me every time I saw him.
he drained the gas tanks, refilled them, and no problems all week. Not only did I get a full tank of gas back, later I had a great steak at their camp site on them.
That motor would have been toast if he waited to get to a dealer.

any way this is a good discussion, a little off topic but may help many with some issues they have as well as help make a desision on the type and hp of a mack engine.
Mike

Bring a magnet to see if anything is metal. I just replaced the Trim motor on my BF50 because the outside caseing rusted thru. I had to pull the engine and was a major job getting the pan head philip screws out. Honda used freeze liquid when they put the 4 screws in and had to use exstream preasure and a hand held impac to remove last screw as the vise grips that removed other screws at 1/8 turn at a time. The Last screw I couldn't get a grip on and used a impac driver, all 4 screws were philip head and could not be removed by hand.
Why they didn't use a stanless cover or aluminum is a lack of quility for a expensive Motor.
The tilt motor cost me $225, labor spent 8 hrs. thats useing a cherry picker to lift motor out.
I have a CD full service Tec manual, it doesn't mention anything about removel of the Tilt motor.
Those who have the same problem with rust on your Power trim on a BF50, I can walk you thru this to make a better day.
Just e-mail me.
Salt water will eat away any metal that sticks to a magnet.
Dave

bahama bound wrote:found and bought a really nice x with trailer for 5 thousand but it came with a really clean 8 horse electric start nissan ,which defeats the purpose of having a x ,was gonna buy a 4 stroke 50 but now i think i might need alittle more motor 70 or 90 ???? i would be greatful for any advice ???? i do wanna bop around the bahamas and i want to do the dry tortuga trip ??? trying to balance ,weight ,fuel economy and performance ?????

As usual - - - no help on this board

Rick

With full kit, family and friends aboard my Mac will do a solid 13 knots (15MPG) WOT with my ETEC-60. It's extremely wet, extremely loud, extremely thirsty, and extremely not fun for anyone but the helmsman. Keep in mind that salt water (where I sail) is generally not the place for high-speed in these boats--going over displacement speed is best done on lakes or shallow bays. There's no WAY I'd be doing over 6 knots for example to Catalina through the San Pedro channel in normal seas--it's way too big a boat to be slamming into wave troughs at speed.

I kind of took the marketing of high-speed at face value, and sure the boat actually does it, but for where I want to go, when I want to go there, and the way I want to travel, I'd probably trade you my 60 for your 8 (and $5K )

Matt

Maybe I'm being stupid, but the spare parts I carry on-board are called "sails". Anything goes wrong with my motor that I can't figure out (or the Chartplotter won't tell me, since I've hooked up the EMM cable--TON of troubleshooting info pops up there BTW, before you get blinking lights and mystery "beeps") means I'm hoisting sails. I can't see the point in carrying a lot of redundancy and tools on board when I have a completely redundant propulsion system available.

Have just thought of a name for the dinghy and it's 4hp tho: "Worst Case Scenario"

mastreb wrote:Maybe I'm being stupid, but the spare parts I carry on-board are called "sails". Anything goes wrong with my motor that I can't figure out (or the Chartplotter won't tell me, since I've hooked up the EMM cable--TON of troubleshooting info pops up there BTW, before you get blinking lights and mystery "beeps") means I'm hoisting sails. I can't see the point in carrying a lot of redundancy and tools on board when I have a completely redundant propulsion system available.

Have just thought of a name for the dinghy and it's 4hp tho: "Worst Case Scenario"

Which points up the fact that you haven't name your main hull yet! I almost named my machine after the reason I came to Canada in 67 - Draught Dodger (or Draft Dodger, if you prefer)

Maybe there's a market for the floating outboard repair mechanic dude - your error codes explained, for a price.

Catigale wrote:

i was shocked at how much 4 strokes cost compared to the E-TEC,

I wouldn't buy an ETEC unless I had service in the backyard, so to speak. There is too much dealer only stuff in this technology, IMHO.

One of the local TV boating shows down here did a cost comparison between the ETEC's and four strokes - it wasn't pretty and made me feel much smarter about my choice.

There is a tremendous amount of effort from break in to multiple low hour maintenances that need to be checked off by a dealer to keep your warranty on the 4 strokes. Truly you pay much more for a 4 stroke and then you take it again with all of the maintenance that takes you off the water and costs you money.

It always pays to have a dealer close by no matter what you choose. In all scenarios it's less of a problem with an ETEC.


Jim

Catigale wrote: Performance - where (guess what?) Brand A 90 HP will perform like Brand B 90 HP ...imagine that...

Reliablity - none of use these engines enough to infer a reliability comparison of one brand over another. The data from the manufacturers and fishing fleets is far from the use of 99% of Mac owners, who are working people sailing on weekends.

Mac likes to 'hawk' the ETEC as the 'OEM" engine which is a complete falsehood - no such OEM engine exists and this pitch is purely profit driven. The consumer should treat the boat and engine purchases as separate events.

To be accurate, the ETEC 60 is the OEM standard - the factory would install noting else. A dealer can buy a hull + trailer and add what ever they like and it's the dealer that's responsible.

Reliability, performance, price and cost of maintenance are quite important topics that should be considered when purchasing a motor for your boat. The data from the fishing fleets is quite relevant and sets and expectation of performance that we should far exceed. Also note that 4 strokes don't really like to move along at 6 knots - 2 strokes do.
I just saw a new 36M with a 60 Merc BF - it takes too much room in the motor well so getting around it is difficult - the ETEC 60 makes a great seat for getting on and off the boat/dinghy. You can't sit on top of the Merc and he's going to have to cut up his helm seat to tilt it all the way up.

There's a reason the factory picks a specific engine for a boat - it's the one that offers the most advantages and the least disadvantages. 4 strokes are expensive both on purchase and on maintenance (if you expect to maintain the warranty).

Jim

Two technical points of fact: MacGregor Yachts only sells hulls, and only to dealers. The dealers rig them and install motors. "MacGregor Sales at the Factory" is an independent dealership operated by Mike Inmon that operates out of the factory office and will sell you either a boat with no motor which you may mount whatever you want, or an ETEC-60 ready to go. You can also buy motor-less hulls from any other dealer if they will sell it to you (many non-U.S. dealers will only sell a specific configuration).

Mike Inmon and Roger MacGregor have worked side by side for years various capacities and are old friends. However, Factory Sales is an independent dealership and doesn't necessarily make the OEM standards. Some of their rigging decisions are different, and the roller furling main is Mike's invention (but the factory does make the mast longer to accommodate it). The ETEC-60 decision is almost certainly Mike's and not Roger's. I do not think that the Suzuki 70s that BWY prefers to put on the boats is any more or less "factory" than the ETEC-60. The MacGregor factory warranty isn't going to apply to the ETEC-60 (although Mike always seems to take care of anything he perceives to be a warranty issue even years after the fact).

I have an ETEC-60. Perhaps Mike will post to correct anything I've said here that is incorrect.

I wouldnt call it stupid, not to carry any parts or tools on board, A little misguided though. Those back up sails also have parts that fail, as well as near impossible to dock, or Moore under sail. Not having spare plugs or prop, and a few other spares could cost a whole trip if something failed. A trip that may have cost a grand or two just to take, let alone the precious time off work that would get waisted.

I know why you said what you said, sort of "we dont need no stinkin badges" sort of thing. But really for want of a ring ding or a pair of pliers and a whole trip is gone, oh I know, I see mikes boat over there, he will have tools and parts and knows how to fix it........Mikes going to start charging for that sort of thing soon, lets see 100 dollars an hour, plus parts and 15 percent, or flat rate rental on the tools, like 100 bucks......plus deposit..
best to have a little bag of tools and a few handy parts me thinks.
Mike

To be accurate, the ETEC 60 is the OEM standard

..to be contrary, no such OEM standard exists. Marine motors and boats are made by two completely different manufacturers.

The motivation of the factory to offer motors packages with boats is pure profit. The markup on the motors in the volume they can offer is comparable to the markup on the boat, so it is a smart business decision. The consumer is wise to consider this before accepting an 'endorsement' of a motor as 'factory' or 'OEM"

There was an incident here where a member received a new boat with an ETEC from the factory only to find that the Macgregor factory had neither registered it nor were they an authorized Evinrude service center..said customer had to pay to have his motor warranty qualified locally in order to get needed warranty work done before Evinrude would talk to him.

I did a search in Costa Mesa for Authorized Evinrude dealers this morning and did not find Macgregor listed.

To be fair to Mike, the overwhelming (99+) experience with him as a dealer and provider of motors on this board has been positive and this should not be construed as a poke at him or his business. I would still recommend any new boat buyer

- Figure out what performance level you want - now and the next 10 years..
- Qualify what service facilities are in your sailing venue
- Fit budget to the above and pick motor based on those, not an "OEM" relationship or endorsement

Why don't dealers carry all motors?

Its expensive. Each motor manufacturer makes you layout cash for training, tools, and parts inventory plus minimum buys per year to be a service center. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that most can only afford to carry one or two lines of motor unless they are a huge dealer.