Offshore Mac sailing

[Mac26Mpaul]

Thanks again to whoever it was that recently posted this video as I believe it will be useful study aid for those considering taking a Mac 50 miles off shore!

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=T4FIS1FnOQg

And remember, it can get MUCH worse than those lovely scenes near the end of the video

It would be just lovely sailing 50 miles off shore in a nice gentle force 2 or 3. The problem is that that can become a force 10 or 12 in no time. Imagine the Mac crashing 30 or 40 feet down from a wave totally out of control , or having several tonnes of water suddenly smashing into those nice thin little perspex windows with their little screws..
or many tonnes of water crashing down from above as a gaint wave crashes ontop of you in the mac pushing the entire boat under water 6 foot or more (as per the 17 year old Jessica Watson in her round the world voyage in the very well regarded super tough S & S 34)

Anyway, if anyone is going to take their Mac 50 miles off shore PLEASE dont take any children or others unlikely to understand the HUGE risk they are taking.....

I'd be willing to bet my big toe that Roger Macgregor would be horrified to hear people were even discussing taking Macs on blue water cruising type trips.....

[Divecoz]

Paul Anything Can Happen and yes weather can change and yes 40 footers do happen.. But Not in The Blink of an Eye... Check Google Maps.. Key West to The Dry Tortuga's is a common event.. made by many.. No One Here is talking about, Doing Bermuda or Tahiti..
2 to 12 in no time? Really? Not Counting Hurricanes? Ive been out 50 + miles on my brothers boat and IIRC we still received US Coast Guard VHF Weather Service..
That Video has been posted all over the Internet.. and there are even better ones available.. But It wasn't 50 miles of a US shore within EVEN..Hours of a bright, sunny, calm day.. Check out the US Coast Guard Rescue Team Videos..Much Smaller Boat.. Those boats hunt those waves on purpose..

[Mac26Mpaul]

well perhaps 2 to 12 in no time is exagerating a little, but it can certainly turn bad fast out there.
Okay, well I dont pretend to be familar with your waters so I'll be quite now,
Here, I wouldn't be taking a lightly built trailer sailer 50 miles off shore,
but I certainly look forward to the trip reports from you guys that do these trips over there

[Kittiwake]

.........
I can't speak for offshore waves or gulf crossings, but I believe our Mac are the best in larger waves and poor weather with a double-reefed main and sliver of a furled jib than compared to powering with a motor.
.......
Phil M

Yes I gather carrying a bit of canvas is generally agreed to stabilize a boat against role in any sort of seas. Did you modify your main for double reefing? My only experience with the phenomenon is in windsurfing ... but it is quite striking. Perhaps Phil I should force myself to make more use of the 26M's sailing capabilities. I'm sure I pay a related price for leaving my mast at home when I head to an exposed coast. But for peaceful trailering, launching, and gunkholing, the mastless Mac is hard to beat.

That certainly is an amazing film of boats in super-heavy seas. We should point out to Doupirate that all of its scenes were shot in summertime just off the Gaspe Peninsula: I think I recognize the landmarks.

Kittiwake

[mastreb]

Kidding aside Mastreb, wouldn't it be better, from a point of control, to leave the rudders only down when faced with running down before a following sea? I realize surfing down an oncoming face could exceed the recommended speed limitation, but in spite of that isn't control vs broaching the better option?
I've been in this situation in an earlier boat and the drag and extra steering of the rudder (1) over that of the smallish outboard, probably saved my (Canadian) bacon.

Ross

You are likely correct, although remember that the engine down with its lower and prop creating drag will help to point in the direction of motion as well without rolling as much. I pulled the rudders up in the chop I was in and it did reduce rolling, although I was also under power.

I want to be clear that I'm not talking about deliberately going storm chasing, I'm merely saying that the Mac will make a better lifeboat than a either a full keel sailboat or any multihull in a storm. I'm also not advocating attempting to do a transoceanic or a circumnavigation in any 26 boat. I've crossed the pacific six times and I've weathered storms that tossed a 500 foot cruiser around like a Mac in a squall. I'm not saying Macs can survive anything, I'm just saying being caught (accidentally) in a storm does not mean all hope is lost, especially if do the right thing: give up on trying to control the situation and just batten down, seal the hatch and transom cable boot by stuffing them with towels, and ride it out.

The horror stories come from people still trying to race, still trying to get there before dark, and getting close to something that they hit or suffering a blowdown because they're still fully sheeted. You seriously will not be able to make headway in anything beyond 8' seas, so stop trying, and if it keeps on for more than 48 hours, hit your EPIRB.

That's all I'm saying.

[mighetto]

Hi Kittiwake,

Would you tell us more about your trips to the west side of Vancouver Island? I've been there a number of times in a kayak and once took my West Wight Potter to the Broken Islands, but I haven't taken my 26 X up yet.

Thanks,

Bill

Bill are you at all interested in sellling that Sport Pilot. If so please drop by my slip at OYC. BTW Murrelet will be South Sound Bound this year owing to the paddle to Olympia that is happening at the end of July. squacson tribe rocks.

[uanhanlouee]

Video of Roger sailing a mac offshore in 50 mph winds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smlP6iXn ... r_embedded

[mastreb]

Video of Roger sailing a mac offshore in 50 mph winds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smlP6iXn ... r_embedded

correction: Roger video recording Mike & Jeff Inmon sailing a mac offshore in 50 mph winds.

[Ixneigh]

A few notes here about weather.
The forcasters are not infallible.
They may not forcast the weather in time for your location.
You may experience severe local conditions not forcast at all.

We had a very sharp squall few days ago.
Forcast was 20 westerly. In a matter of an hour it went from breezy to 40-50 KNOTS.
I made it out to the mooring in the dinghy but only barely and only in the lulls.
The wind was sucking water off the surface of the sea. Haven't seen anything like that in a while.
The forcast was still calling for westerly at 20 meanwhile realtime wind reports from Mollassas Reef were 51 knots southwesterly. So yes things can turn to __ very quickly.
I ran the engine in case I had to take evasive action and to try to ease the strain on the mooring.

The duration of three hours is unlikely to create huge waves in deep water.
The yacht if she could carry any sail at all would be double reefed with no jib.
The water intake on the engine will quickly get clogged with stirred up sediment if in shallow water.

If I was caught in deeper water such as a gulf stream crossing and I could not park the boat Slighty into the wind with a double reef then I would run off. Rudders up and engine down. I would run the motor to encourage her to do it if I had to. I would never lie ahull with a Mac M.

Rogers video shows the boat with some jib out. In the conditions we had that would have been impossible.

I feel the yacht could handle short duration weather in stride as long as the waves were small.
I would not have bought it otherwise. But who wants to be out there in that ? I got nothing to prove.

Ixneigh

[mastreb]

Rudders up and engine down. I would run the motor to encourage her to do it if I had to. I would never lie ahull with a Mac M.

Rogers video shows the boat with some jib out. In the conditions we had that would have been impossible.
Ixneigh

Why rudders up? To prevent damage to them?

Also, I've found the boat handles much better in heavy weather with a small patch of jib out than it does main-only (although I've not been out in 50 knots). Without the jib out I find its very difficult to keep a consistent bearing.

Concur on lying ahull.

Matt

[Doupirate]

Doupirate wrote:

Given a favorable weather window, you are much safer 50 miles offshore than 5 miles offshore which is safer than 1 mile offshore, which is much safer than 500 feet offshore.

http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/monde/20 ... ivent.html

Downwind with force 4-5 winds, down the 3 knots Gaspe current, board up, you can cross from Anse-a-Beaufils to the Magdalen Islands in a little less than 24 hours. That is a 100 miles crossing. Everybody does it. Around here, the 24 hours weather forecasts are extremely reliable.

A guy who usually sails on the Saint-Jean lake, has crossed the Atlantic ocean solo 3 times so far, with his 25 footer. The last time, he went from Canada direct to the middle of the African west coast non stop, solo and unassisted. He was missing his girlfriend....

In 50 knots winds, I would take a small amount of jib, no main, and run the waves with a little angle in order to reduce the speed down the waves. The route, in those circumstances is not material. You just want to avoid breaking the boat. You flee wherever the wind takes you, that is, if you were prudent enough to stay far away from shores! If you are 100 miles from the downwind shore, you need not to worry for 24 hours, if only 50 miles away, you hope for a less than 12 hours storm.....

Taking breaking waves from behind, I would raise de rudders to protect them, then increase the jib a little, just enough to surf it out.

As per power: no. Save fuel. Last resort, if you brake something.... mast, rudder, a leg, a harm, a hand, a back.... I have spare glasses and 36 pills of hydromorphone on board all the time....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLqBJo0wdYc If you pay attention, you will notice they are running out of wind at the bottom of the waves that are shielding the wind from behind!

Concerning that video of a Mac Gregor sailing in gale force wind, please notice they are sailing perfectly parallel to the waves, which is equivalent, from the boat perspective, to a flat sea. The boat stays balanced with the jib out, but the excessive heel is hidden by the wave wall....well done ! Racing seamanship!


In June, when I plan this trip, we have no thunderstorms. In our cold waters, fog is more of a concern than storms.

Concur on not lying ahull with the modern lighter boats.

[Ixneigh]

Yes to avoid rudder damage. The engine mount is very strong. Plus it would act as a break.
I would not have the main up at all if i was forced to run off. With no back stay I would be hesitant to have any jib up.
I doubt shed need it in really strong winds but I will experiment before needing the info!
I have successfully "parked" the boat into the wind with kind of a hove too type of maneuver in short duration squalls using a double reefed main but not in offshore waves. The boat will make a knot or two and crab sideways but not heel excessively. It requires someone on the helm. Sooner or later offshore you will need to rest and then what?
Perhaps a sea anchor if one wishes to carry that plus the 400-600 feet of nylon line it would require.
Someone else will have to be the one to test that. I do hope that my biggest concern with this boat is drying out on a conch shell on some tidal flat in the Bahamas.
As an aside I have a huge respect for Boldgers oddball sharpies and no one would dare call them anything but right proper boats, if a little unusual. No one contemplates the offshore qualities of a Black Skimmer.
They explore the swamps and if they then feel the need to sail deeper waters they sell it and buy a used Cabo Rico
Or my personal fav a Super Maramu. If money was no object of course

Ixneigh

[Phil M]

Doupirate wrote:

Downwind with force 4-5 winds, down the 3 knots Gaspe current, board up, you can cross from Anse-a-Beaufils to the Magdalen Islands in a little less than 24 hours. That is a 100 miles crossing. Everybody does it. Around here, the 24 hours weather forecasts are extremely reliable.

A guy who usually sails on the Saint-Jean lake, has crossed the Atlantic ocean solo 3 times so far, with his 25 footer. The last time, he went from Canada direct to the middle of the African west coast non stop, solo and unassisted. He was missing his girlfriend....

Everybody does a 24 hour crossing? I doubt many Macs on this forum would attempt a 24 hour crossing in cold waters that have tanker traffic coming off the great lake ports. Also, Environment Canada must prepare better weather forecasts for the east coast.

Smaller boats that cross the Atlantic are built much different than ours are too. It's like comparing apples to oranges. Our Macs are great little boats, but they have their limits.


Phil M

[Doupirate]

Everybody does a 24 hour crossing? I doubt many Macs on this forum would attempt a 24 hour crossing in cold waters that have tanker traffic coming off the great lake ports. Also, Environment Canada must prepare better weather forecasts for the east coast.

Smaller boats that cross the Atlantic are built much different than ours are too. It's like comparing apples to oranges. Our Macs are great little boats, but they have their limits.


Phil M

Yes, everybody does it. The sailboat crossing is plotted on the paper maps.

Yes transoceanic small boats are built stronger, but a 24 hours crossing is no Atlantic crossing. It's like comparing a peanut to a pumpkin.

The weather forecasts reliability is dependant upon geography. In our waters they are very reliable for the first 24 hours. On the Pacific coast you might not have as many stations to the West where most of the weather comes from!

I understand it would scare you and I respect it.

When I'll lose sight of the shore, I will not tell the boat nor the weather so they continue behaving normally.