Florida to the Bahamas. The plan...

[Saxacussionist]

It sounds like those of you who live in that area are recommending that we should stick to an area of 1 or 2 Keys rather than trying to do the "Key Largo to Key West" cruise?

[Ixneigh]

I dunno. How much fuel do you want to burn? I blew two weeks just in the upper Keys and did no fishing or diving. Just some paddle boarding.
Launch the boat, wander south. Be flexible. I am headed to the gulf side of the lower keys as soon as I can maybe in sept. waiting for a new board to come in.

Ixneigh

[mrbillfll]

The Bahamas can be very unforgiving, if you get in trouble.

Expect to be on your own completely. not like the USA at all. and the locals would love to have your stuff, as salvage, should you get in trouble, plan to write it all off as a loss. (low percentage odds, but its there)

it would not be where I would go as a new boat owner, or new sailor with no blue water experience.

Someone posted about biscayne bay/key largo - very good cruising grounds in the winter, since its mostly protected from the fronts.

you could also try the west coast, 10,000 islands area. very very secluded but some shallow ground in the cuts where you anchor.

further down by big pine key and the content keys would be really nice an secluded, but its tricky water there. lots of current, and not as much protection from the N fronts. so you might need to come into to the island chain when they push through.

the biggest problem in the keys is where to store the truck and trailer. -grassy key maina, (grassy key), sea bird maina in long key, and south dade in upper key largo would be good choices. key west while nice is very touristy, and $$$$. also better for the larger boats.

[Sumner]

It sounds like those of you who live in that area are recommending that we should stick to an area of 1 or 2 Keys rather than trying to do the "Key Largo to Key West" cruise?

I'd also concur that trying to go to the Bahamas with a 2 week window is not a good idea especially if you haven't sailed in the type waters you will encounter down there. Some people with large boats wait longer than that just to have a good crossing one way.

I'll also add a couple other thoughts and hopefully someone that is down there can expand on them. From South Dade Marina (where we took out) south is the Florida Keys Sanctuary and we found the requirements for human waste disposal very confusing. You have different requirements posted from different government entities. We put the boat on a mooring ball at Boot Key Harbor (Marathon) and were told that we had to have a holding tank installed within one week that could be pumped out. We use Double Doodie/Wag Bags and can carry our waste for a couple months no problem, but they didn't buy that. We left before the week was up. Since our boats are under 26 feet they might be exempt if you have what we did and/or a regular porta-pottie, but you might get a ticket and have to go to court and fight it.

If you are out more than a few days you are going to have to address this situation as there is no dumping down there even 3 miles from shore. It is also hard to find places to go to shore if you don't know the area but the guide/cruising books will help there.

We wanted to go further south (area past Big Pine mentioned above), but after the deal at Marathon decided we had better head north so did so. We were stopped by Homeland Security, but they only wanted our ID and registration. We were also inspected by Florida Game and Fish, but they only checked our safety gear. Over on the West Coast at Marco Island we were boarded by the Sheriff's dept. and they were only interested in the head, but had no problem with our system since it isn't connected to a thru-hull.

I would not take the Mac back down to the Keys without a holding tank and pump-out even if I wasn't using it. You could get a MSD porta-pottie with the pump-out line and if you are using a porta-pottie now that is what I'd do. Since we removed the head that isn't an option for us, but I have another idea for us if we take the Mac back down there.

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Navigation: You will be in a lot of skinny water down there with tides and currents. You don't want to go down there not prepared for that. You can go down the Gulf side of the Keys and follow the ICW markers and probably stay out of trouble, but going in places to anchor you really need charts and the ability to read them. We had large paper charts for the area, but finding land marks and using a compass and such is quite intimidating as most of the landfall looks the same. We used Sea Clear on the ship's computer that is hooked to a USB GPS ...

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner ... index.html

....and transferred waypoints from it to a handheld in the cockpit and had no problems. We also had a second backup handheld (you can get these on e-bay for less than $70) and 2 other laptops with SeaClear on them (we will probably switch now to Open CPN). These programs are free and so are the NOAA charts that you use with them. Load one of these on your computer at home along with the charts and start getting familiar with the area. Please also have something like this or a chart plotter with you.

The handheld GPS or Open CPN will also give you tide tables. Those will help you along with a depth finder (you need one for sure) and your charts in finding a good place to anchor where you will have protection from the wind and such.

Having a VHF will give you NOAA weather and wave height info.

I'd have at least a 22 lb. claw anchor as the main anchor down there with 20-30 feet of chain and if you have a danforth use it as a backup. We were on 2 anchors at times.

If you want to explore the Keys you will be on your own and not near others a lot so plan ahead.

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It is Florida, but it can get cold down there at that time and the water will be colder also. We were on the west coast our first trip...

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner ... index.html

....and it got into the low 30's when an unusual cold front came through in Dec.. The Keys at that time would be warmer, but people were even cold in Key West at that time.

Above people keep mentioning the Northerlies. When the fronts come in you can get some major wind. We holed up a couple times for 2-3 days at a time on that fall trip. Over in the Keys once you get about 1/3 of the way down there is little protection from the wind coming in on the Gulf side during these storms until you get maybe down past Pine Island where if you are careful you might find some protection. The same for the southwest coast.

I think trying to go from South Dade to Key West in one trip of 2 weeks is doable, but I'd recommend staying in the upper Keys where you have protection and it is really nice. That was our favorite area on our second...

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner ... index.html

...spring trip (we also like parts of the 10,000 Islands on southwest coast). Another thing was the weather in March/April was ideal for us and at the end the water temps in the keys were great.

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The Keys are great and we loved them so much that we bought another used boat to keep down there so don't let any of the above discourage you, just get yourself prepared so the trip is a great one. I have our route and anchorages with those links above and more. Hope they help and have fun it is a great place,

Sum

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Our MacGregor 26-S

Our Endeavour 37

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

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[Catigale]

If you are out more than a few days you are going to have to address this situation as there is no dumping down there even 3 miles from shore. It is also hard to find places to go to shore if you don't know the area but the guide/cruising books will help there.

12 miles from shore you are in international waters and can do as you please....useful to know if you are really in a bind.

I'm upping my holding tank to 10 gallons next year with both Macerator and pump out options

We just make 5 gallons with 6 up for a week, with the crew reserving the PP for night use only.....

[Sumner]

If you are out more than a few days you are going to have to address this situation as there is no dumping down there even 3 miles from shore. It is also hard to find places to go to shore if you don't know the area but the guide/cruising books will help there.

12 miles from shore you are in international waters and can do as you please....useful to know if you are really in a bind.

I'm upping my holding tank to 10 gallons next year with both Macerator and pump out options

We just make 5 gallons with 6 up for a week, with the crew reserving the PP for night use only.....

Hey you have a fast boat, we have a slow one and a 24 mile trip is big for us . You did get me looking at the charts for there to see how far out the sanctuary does extend.



Above is the NOAA chart for the Keys and the Southern FL mainland with Key West way down to the left and Miami off the chart up to the right. The 3 upper yellow arrows point to the green boundary. It is 8-10 miles NW of the keys in most spots, but near the Content Keys (mentioned above) it is 2-3 miles north of them ( top middle arrow ), so not too far. On the Atlantic side (bottom arrows) it is 8-10 miles out most of the way. Again a ways out if you are sailing or limited to hull speed.

Note also that north of the upper right arrow you have the Everglades and the Sanctuary butting up against each other on the Gulf side, so there is no place to go further out once you are up by the Florida Bay.

I've tried to find a number of times accurate wording for the area and looking at the chart their Note #2...



...indicates that if you have a thru-hull that it needs to be secured. A porta-pottie or our head can't discharge anyway as the Sherriff's deputy noted. I guess the the city of Marathon (Boot Key Harbor) can have their own regulations, but they told us that it was a Key's Sanctuary Regulation not just theirs.

A year or so ago Florida (state of) had their own rules about marine sanitation devices (MSD) that were not worded very well and in conflict with what I posted above and they even noted at the time that they might not hold up in court. I just looked and their current stance is...

Vessels operating in Florida waters must comply with the U.S. Coast Guard requirements relating to marine sanitation devices, where applicable.

Coast Guard requirements for under 26 feet...

If you have an installed toilet, you must have an operable MSD, Type I, II, or III

I think the word "installed" above means permanent not a portable toilet.

And from the Feds (lots of rules for that area) on the Sanctuary Rules....

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/te ... 16&idno=15

.... you have this...

(vi) Having a marine sanitation device that is not secured in a manner that prevents discharges or deposits of treated and untreated sewage. Acceptable methods include, but are not limited to, all methods that have been approved by the U.S. Coast Guard (at 33 CFR 159.7(b) and (c)).

There the wording says that "Acceptable methods include, but are not limited to, all methods that have been approved by the U.S. Coast Guard". I like the "not limited" part.

The main problem is that there are a number of agencies overlooking that area and who know who will stop you and what their interpretation of the law is. As I said before I'd probably have a working MSD...



http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?pat ... &id=435205

...with a pump-out hose hooked to it before returning with the Mac. I replaced the old 15 gallon holding tank on the Endeavour with a 20 gallon, but even with that if we are planning on anchoring for some time in the Keys we will probably use the Double Doodie bags before it is full. If a person worries about making it on a trip with a porta-pottie just throw some bags in the boat with a 5 gallon bucket with a seal-able lid. Use the bucket for storage, but if the head ends up full you now have a backup.

Cat thanks for getting me to look at what the recent wording says. How about some of you that live in the Keys, has this situation ever come up with any of the authorities?

Sum

===================================
Our MacGregor 26-S

Our Endeavour 37

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Mac-Venture Links