MacGregorSailors.com

Darren, let me address some of your comments about a chartplotting GPS at the helm, with my experiences doing it both ways, using paper at the helm before the chartplotter. Keep in mind, they're in an open boat with no cabin or windshield, typical cruising speed of 20 knots with a top speed of 30 knots... probably not as fast or as stable as your powerboat.

Weatherability: Our Garmin is mounted right next to our Whaler's starboard gunwale about two feet off the water. As a few will point out, I've never experienced the Mac cockpit, but some here make it sound pretty wet. However, I doubt it's any wetter than a 15' Whaler being run too fast in 3-5' seas, and our 178C has held up to that. It's IPX 7 and the worst we've put it through is probably IPX 5 or 6. If we turtle the boat, that'll be IPX 7. The display is relatively steady... not flapping around in the wind like the chart in the waterproof protector that needs a tether to keep it from blowing out. Not very easy to read. Is the Mac cockpit any less windy, especially when under power?

Speed of Use: I've found little need to use menus when underway, mostly using the dedicated Zoom In/Out buttons. With the faster screen redraws of modern processors, that's a lot quicker than panning with the joystick button. Very occasionally, I use the Page buttons to switch from chart display to something else, but most of the needed info, including the fishfinder's depth value, I can display on the chart. In fact, I put some different data fields on different pages, so they aren't all on the chart page... some on the compass page, some on the highway page, some on the fishfinder page, and some on the split screen page. And since the unit automatically switches charts depending on zoom level, it's a heck of a lot speedier than putting away one scale paper chart and pulling out another. BTDT, real PITA. There are a total of 40-something charts, including harbor charts, in the island area we boat in. 39 of them are in a non-waterproof chart book that would have to be laminated page by page for use at the helm.

Data entry: Yes, it sucks scrolling up and down through all the alphanumeric characters for each character entered. Fortunately for us, most of that's done either on the PC and transferred in, or when anchored. I'm sure you're probably quick enough to jump down in the cabin, and plot and label a fix on a paper chart on the table, and be back at the helm before I could label a waypoint on the GPS while underway. But my problem is I probably couldn't remember the coordinates by the time I got to the table. OTOH, you can't do this even with autopilot if the sea state isn't safe enough to leave the helm, and it would definitely be a challenge doing it on paper at the helm. When establishing a waypoint while underway in less than ideal conditions, I just take the default crpytic name. If I don't think I can remember what it is, I have Barb jot down the cryptic name and what it is in a small notebook. I agree this is definitely an area for improvement on electronic chartplotters, and a tablet-PC-like display you could hand write notes on would be great.

Detail: If you're talking about screen resolution, some displays are now at the threshold of normal human acuity at 2' viewing distance (150 lpi) but ours is just close. On a windless day on glass smooth water in our little boat, higher resolution might be an advantage. But with any waves or wind, it's hard enough to hold a paper chart still enough to resolve fine detail (300-600 dpi printing at 6"-12" viewing distance) in an open boat. Now if you're talking about the granularity of a vector drawing compared to a raster or paper image, I can understand, because at any given scale chart, the vector sacrifices at least something. But keep in mind that when zooming in areas where you need the detail most, you're probably automatically switching from a 80,000:1 or 40,000:1 chart to a much more detailed larger scale, maybe 10,000:1 or even 5,000:1. With any given paper chart, especially one folded or cut down for cockpit use, you're always compromising between detail and area covered.

Richard (divecoz), the links you posted are well worth reading... and not just for the notoriously poor Bahamas charts, but for any area that experiences hurricanes. I bought the Gulf Coast charts when we got the GPS, and I noted one particular area just inside the Pensacola pass was charted almost as it was when I was a kid. But from personally being there, I knew it had changed several times since as a result of hurricanes and what was a navigable waterway was now a huge sandbar even at high tide. What's hilarious is when viewing the aerial photos after Ivan, that area is now back very close to the way it was 30-something years ago, and the GPS chart is now very close to correct again! The big question is, whether paper charts would have been any more current?

The point in Richard's links is that there's also no substitute for local knowledge, whether it's from a very CURRENT cruising guide, or from others' CURRENT experience, or from what you discover yourself, using the GPS when you don't need it in good weather, which some might consider playing with a toy. You'll be glad you did it when fog rolls in. That's one thing we've done in the Islands of Lake Erie area. Daymarks appear to correspond closely to their locations on the GPS charts, but bouys can be all over the place... on the wrong side of a hazard, or rarely but actually, missing. And that varies from year to year. The things that don't move are the hazards they mark and we have a better idea of where we are with respect to them with a real-time location on the chartplotter.

I definitely don't disagree, that in unfamiliar areas, or especially when out of sight of land, it's essential to keep a track on a paper chart with periodic fixes. Electrics and electronics fail occasionally. USPS recommends one every hour and one at each course or speed change. There's no debate over whether using GPS fixes to do this are more accurate than using paddlewheel speeds in winds and currents, and the USPS guidelines are reasonable when trying to save battery power.

Where the debate, at least here, may be, is whether having a backup battery-powered handheld GPS/Chartplotter with the same cartography as the fixed unit, is a substitute for plotting on paper. This is just my humble opinion, but in the light of what's being done with GPS accuracy for national security, I don't think so... and said that in a previous thread.
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Moe (watching JAG and Numbers while typing this)

I admit I don't know enough to debate anyone yet. I found those site's and about 40 others very interesting is all, and all of them are first hand kind of been there done that info . I am BTW taking some sailing lessons this fall wish it was now and sending Audrey on an all girls sailing school this year as well.
I want to learn how to Navigate both ways too BTW . I feel from what all I have read that my Lowrance LCX 19C with its 7" color screen shoot thru and transom mount flip a switch dual freq.etc. etc. and all that it is capable doing and the new grafts that are or will be soon available and a Radar hook up how could I go wrong for the price I paid which was less BTW than what your Garmins would have cost me..
Now I am waiting to get this boat out in the water. Water time is what I need badly . But summer is coming ! Even to Chicago !
My brother called from his Shamrock tonight at the mouth of Port Charlotte Bay and is heading 30 miles out in the morning (40 to 50 minutes) to go kill some fish : )Wish I was slowly bringing up the rear .Slowly yes slowly he reminded me he did Port Charlotte to Key Largo in 7 hours non-stop . 630 hp sure eats up the diesel though.

Moe wrote: ... not flapping around in the wind like the chart in the waterproof protector that needs a tether to keep it from blowing out. Not very easy to read. Is the Mac cockpit any less windy, especially when under power?

Speed of Use: I've found little need to use menus when underway, mostly using the dedicated Zoom In/Out buttons.

Actually, I'd suggest that it's as bad, maybe worse when sailing upwind. Remember that you have tuned your boat to sling you across the wind so that it's howling directly across the cockpit - which is canted from 15 to 30 degrees. That is ample wind and heel to preclude a chart from staying put, no matter where you tried to place it. And yes, if true wind exceeds 18 kn. you'll have a generous and steady sprinkle of salt(water) to season your charts.

Regarding speed of use and data entry, I guess I'll admit that navigating within a Bay isn't so much navigating as simply monitoring a constantly moving DR plot toward your objective, a cut, an island, a breakwater, or whatever. Even on a longer cruise, our daily objective has been predetermined. I've never needed to program a GPS target underway. Wouldn't such a need reveal a lack of basic, rudimentary planning? I can't imagine doing so (underway) on paper either, but certainly not in the cockpit.

And Divecoz - you'll love that 19C. I anticipate different data needs and program different screens to show such. The Lowrance permits a dozen user-defined screens with infinite combinations of map, depth, speed, compass, etc readings. They're accessible with one keypress and then an arrow button to scroll the choices. After setup the night before, it's brain-dead easy to access a dataview.

I am new to chartplotters/GPS/finders and such, but after having my 178C for 5 months and having NEVER EVER...not even once opened the owners manual I can use it easily and love that thing.

Lets just be honest here for a minute, you are sailing in the same general area for years, come on...you don't look at the chart everytime or always have it at the ready. It is stored away down below next to your flares and spare bilge pump. Having the chartplotter actually makes it eaiser to keep track of where you are and where you are going and lets the "average joe" become much safer at sea, even if just 1/4 mile off shore.

Before the "toys" of chartplotter/GPS combo units for under $600 how many "average" boaters even had papercharts? I will bet you right now your average Joe didn't even know what chart number his area was. The advent of technology has made boating safer. hull drive down the freeway and how many times do you see little kids NOT wearing seatbelts.....the same goes for boating and there isn't even a lisense required to operate a sailboat 100 miles off shore with 5 people on board! Any thechnology that can make saftey Easier, as chartplotters/GPS units do is a good thing.

I have paper charts for my area on the boat "somewhere" and do look at them from time to time, but come on....the feds can't even keep thousands of illegals from pouring into California....and I am to worry about them screwing up my GPS unit??? I have other things to worry about, like getting more sailing time.

Oh and one more real safey benefit of the 178C is that like other GPS units it connects to my VHF radio and in a emergency situation can send my exact location to the authorities instead of the more typical "I am off of ventura....oh I don't know exactly....maybe 2-5 miles....I can see land....I see a flock of birds...."


Respectfully

Rich

I did the opposite with the user manuals (plural), downloading those for the Furuno 1650, the Lowrance 19C, and the Garmin 188C, and at least one other I can't remember, BEFORE buying anything. I read each at least twice to get familiar with the features and operation, so that when I tried them out at the store, quite a drive for us, I knew pretty much where everything was. It made the hands-on time with them much more productive.

If you're shopping for a unit, reading the user's manuals can tell you a lot more about them than the marketing material.
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Moe

Maybe Im a lonely soul but I get a kick out of snapping two bearings of landmarks on Lake Ontario, then going below and plotting my position on the chart and then seeing how close I am to the Garmin 76CS...

The best tool I got for this was a pair of BOATUS binoculars with a compass built in.

Even with a backup GPS in the ditch bag, this is a pretty good skill to have imho.

Dont forget to make the MAG North to TRUE north correction.....

Stephen, when we were taking piloting and learning about using a pelorus and hand-bearing compass, one of our guest lecturers brought in a pair of Steiner Commander binoculars with compass and said she preferred using it for shooting bearings. We loved them, but didn't want to spend that much money. Steiner had a lower cost version of the Commander named the "Marine" and made a version of it for WM called the Marine II that had the same compass as the Commander. We got lucky and got them at a steep discount when WM quit carrying them. I think Steiner sells them as the "Observer" now under their brand name.

We've "played" with them, shooting bearings on Lake Erie, and converting to relative, but as said above, it's a bit difficult to plot on paper in the little Whaler.

One note on your comment about converting magnetic to true. After years of pounding TVMDC conversions into students, USPS is now teaching Piloting students to plot magnetic rather than true courses and bearings on paper charts. It's my OPINION that this is a mistake, and find it more time consuming to have to walk parallel rules from the magnetic compass rose than to line up a plotting tool on the latitude and longitude lines. [added on edit:] OTOH, there's time saved not doing the conversions. I don't know for sure, but I'd guess they also have students set up the GPS to display magnetic rather than true values.

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Moe

Im a serious bird watcher so I sprung for the 300 buck 10x50s with compass for the Boat - since I use them every time on the Hudson watching eagles I feel the cost was justified.

One less thing to lug for day tripping, and useful offshore too.

Spending $1000 for the high end Steiners for shooting bearings is a waste of cash, imho......this from a guy with about 50k of camera optics from another life.

Hey the debate continues: I just got back taking the little Mac out. What a day cool 3- 4 foot waves 15-20 knots of wind. Had a great sail. Didnt use the GPS or charts once. chasing doplfins waking up seals. went out about 8 miles. I think I would have missed some of the playful sea life out there if I was watching the GPS all the time. All the points about the GPS/ CHART PLOTTERS are valid. No debate from me about usefullness or convient or just fun knowing where you are exactly almost. But where did I need them today? If I had a chart plotter I probably wouldnt have turned it on. I will be getting one but I do think that some times they take away not add to the over all. I feel good, relaxed, book another good memory.
Spray: Never sailed an X but with the seas today and for the most part any time no spray any point of sail on the M.

Had a little race back in with an older mac, not X but older not sure the model but had a pop top. anyway it was fun lasted about a mile or so. I overtook and beat him to the break wall. Boy that was fun. I think it would have been fun if he beat me too.

Ran right into maybe a hundred or so dolphins (porpoise) hunting If you have never seen them do this, Its amazing they circle around and around herding whatever is below us, then they take turns and explode from underneath and come up in the middle of this ball of fish.
Its so intentional. so planned. I sailed about 100 feet from them and tried to stay away from the circle and watched this for about a half hour. Awsome.
Couldnt wait to get home after putting the boat up to share with you guys.
guess Im hooked on this board too.
Mike

Sounds like a golden day off the SoCal coast! I've seen some dolphins off the Channel Is. but only a few seals in the Bay.

Salt spray on a 26X is not a bad thing, it's just part of the program on a different sort of day. I wear glasses but an old ski-goggle protects them and all marine GPS units are resistant anyway. We note 15 knots by the scattered whitecaps. When winds rise to a steady 18 knots the whitecaps are profuse and wind waves will be about 2 feet.

In those conditions at anything above a beam reach, my 26X rig will need to be pulled tight as a drum. Genoa is well-reefed with the mainsail at first reef and pulled as flat as possible. The backstay will be tight, the vang will be tight, and it's a battle to keep the rudders in-lift. The rig is straining hard plowing the chop and the wind carries salt spray from every plunge, so spray across the windward bow is a given .... not a bad thing at all - just par for the course. Those few days when I'm successful holding a close reach for a half-hour in 18 knots ---- they're golden, too!

Frank

Thats strange, about the spray. The only time I ever remember taking spray was motoring against the swell at a pretty good clip with lots of wind. My boat seems to ride a whole lot better under sail then motoring. and no spray as of yet. It seems to just ride the waves or cuts into them very sharply instead of pounding through them. Have you been on an M before? I never sailed an X the only thing that might be diff. is that you guys have a flatter bottom so you dont sail at as much angle as the M. or maybe I dont understand how much spray your talking about. I remember Scott on the way to Catalina said he took some spray but we were motoring and he had the 90 going at times pretty fast.

In the conditions Frank describes spray is going to be inevitible on most any boat-- And often big container ships, too. I know, I go up on them and it is a salty, grimey, mess! I avoid those conditions so I only used to experience sprayin the cockpit from high speed motoring into the wind-- no more with dodger-bimini-connector setup.

Another benefit I got from my Mac-- perfect vision! After experiencing that spray and having to constantly clean glasses I got Lasik-- went from 20-800 vision to 20-15-- best $900 I ever spent. Get out of those goggles, Frank!

Mike, I see that school of dolphins all the time bout 10 miles out between Catalina and San Pedro-- Many seals, gray whales, and lately large schools of fish, too. Get at least a handheld GPS for those trips to Catalina- it could quite literally save your life. My sister, nephews, and bro in law once got lost in fog on way back without them and ended up accidentally circling back blind, almost running up on rocks back into island(compass logically broke as well) Disaster narrowly avoided, they have since wisely invested in them.
R

Oh I have a GPS and charts, I started out with loran years ago. I have had GPS first time they came out.
Been in the fog and rain. Dont look for it but its happened. Maybe you think I have a problem having and useing GPS/CHATPLOTTERS. not at all. Just thought there would be other alternatives to Garmin, still do. My point was useing them or depending on them for exact navigating. I dont think you should, some people do. Even going up a narrow channel in the fog at night buoy to buoy. I just think thats lame.

Astigmatism, about 20/40, plus farsighted ... been told I'm not a good Lasik candidate.

Regarding spray ... sure, anytime you're heading INTO 18 knots, plus the boat is moving at 7 knots, you're sure to catch some spray across the windward bow. It's always worse on one tack than the other, varies w/ wave direction per tides, etc.

If the boat is cooperating (read as "willing to tack") then I'll pick tacks accordingly. But if the tune is on a knife-edge and she don't want to tack ... then the H&LL WID'IT, just hunker down and enjoy!

I'm also not a good candidate for Lasik.
The quickest/best way to clean salt spray off my glasses is to lick the salt off and put them back on. It's just salt.