Need help diagnosing Honda 50 problem

[craiglaforce]

Gee you would think they would have better diagnostic tools available than trial and error. Car engines will give readout codes but I guess this is not the case with marine engines. Sorry to hear they are jerking you around. Seems ridiculous if it is a warantee item. If the warantee is between you and the motor vendor, why not just call the motor vendor and tell them the parts you need?

[mike]

Gee you would think they would have better diagnostic tools available than trial and error. Car engines will give readout codes but I guess this is not the case with marine engines.

I think the bigger Hondas (fuel injected) will indicate some trouble codes via a blinking warning light if you put a jumper across a couple of terminals, but not the smaller ones.

Sorry to hear they are jerking you around. Seems ridiculous if it is a warantee item. If the warantee is between you and the motor vendor, why not just call the motor vendor and tell them the parts you need?

This warrantee is kinda strange... it's not a factory warrantee, but rather is more like a health insurance policy for the motor. I don't like it, but I didn't buy it (the original owner did). This could very well be the cause of the jerking around... the shop owner is worried that if he replaces the CDI without ruling out other (cheaper) things first, and that turns out to not be the problem, the extended warrantee people will not pay for it. But, of course, in the process he is going through procedures that almost certainly will not solve the problem, and are unnecessarily adding to the overall cost of the repair (perhaps that's a factor too... get as much as you can out of them).

--Mike

[Don B]

Mike,

I am still waiting on my Suzuki to be looked at. Two weeks ago they told me they would be looking at it this week. I called yesterday around lunch and they still had not looked at it.

Both times I have asked them "Did you order a Suzuki fuel connector that goes to the engine?" Both times they told me it was coming in. I guess I was botherd by the fact that they did not have one fuel connector in stock.

Well I guess they still have the rest of today and tommorrow but it does not look good for going to the boat this weekend.

And I know what you mean about test running it, as originally taking it out and using it was the only way for my boat to act up. But.... the better half did not like that method.

-DOn B

[Mark Prouty]

Gee you would think they would have better diagnostic tools available than trial and error. Car engines will give readout codes but I guess this is not the case with marine engines. Sorry to hear they are jerking you around. Seems ridiculous if it is a warantee item. If the warantee is between you and the motor vendor, why not just call the motor vendor and tell them the parts you need?

What this is a Honda and you have to replace parts one by one till it finally works and you have to test an hour and a half to know if it is fixed. What if it turns out to be something some place they're not even looking. You'd be out testing endlessly. The mecanic is probably charging $50 to $70 dollars an hour what happens when the motor is off warranty?

What a pickle. Good luck.

[mike]

What this is a Honda and you have to replace parts one by one till it finally works and you have to test an hour and a half to know if it is fixed. What if it turns out to be something some place they're not even looking. You'd be out testing endlessly.

We're pretty much positive that it is ignition related, so I know we're in the right neighborhood. But you're right... if it's not these coils, and not the CDI, I don't what we'll do.

And yes, the situation just plain sucks... the nature of this problem, the fact that it malfunctions for a few moments, then runs great, makes it very difficult to determine what component is causing the trouble. You need to look at the symptoms, and apply a little common sense to figure out the most likely suspects, which is the most frustrating thing... the ignition coils are NOT likely culprits, but we're wasting time replacing them anyway.

Of course, I'm not a Honda mechanic... but I DO have the capability to think and apply simple logic. The problem is affecting 2 cylinders, which, unless by some miracle both of these ignition coils are malfunctioning the same exact way at the same exact time, means it has to be something before this in the ignition system. Wiring, ignition charge coil, pulser coil, and CDI. I think the ignition charge coil can be ruled out, since if it was flaky, the #1 cylinder would go dead too. The pulser coil, and the wiring are possibilities. But, IMHO, the component that sounds most likely to be producing an odd symptom like this is the little black box with electronics that control and trigger the sparks. The problem I'm running into now is that the owner of the shop can't fathom a CDI unit failing... it's just impossible for that to happen, so it MUST be something else.

Then again, if it turns out that replacing these coils fixes the problem, I'm going to have a crow feast.

The mecanic is probably charging $50 to $70 dollars an hour what happens when the motor is off warranty?

When it's out of warranty, I'll buy the stinking part, install it myself, and be up and running by the next weekend.

--Mike

[Don B]

Mike,

I just called and now they can't get to my boat until next week. When I set up the repair over two weeks ago there was no question about them not getting to it this week. Now when they can't get to it until next week they give me the line about how the mechanic was a little over optimistic on what he could get done in two weeks.

And they said they like it when they overestimate time and get ahead of schedule. I told them I like that too.

-Don B

[Don B]

Mike,

I was just doing a search at iboats.com on Duratanks to see if anyone knew what fuel connector they require. I only came across two posts in my search. One was a previous post of mine and that coincidentaly the only other one was by you concerning your Honda engine problems. I find it more than interesting that both of us use Dura Tanks.

Does you 6 gallon Dura-Tank have the built in male connector and mechanical gas guage ?

-Don B

[mike]

Does you 6 gallon Dura-Tank have the built in male connector and mechanical gas guage ?

No, mine is the "plain" type with no gauge, and just an empty female threaded port for attaching the connector of your choice.

I did, however, rule out the possibility that the tank was the problem... it also occurs with a Tempo 7.5gal tank.

--Mike

[Mark Chamberlain]

I would check the o ring in the fuel line and replace them, also pull the cover off the fly wheel and do a visaul check of the wire winding under it, My deal says these come unwrapped at times and should be inspected.
Mark

[Don B]

Thanks Mike and Mark,

One of the last things I did before calling the dealer was filling my two duratanks that were empty with fresh high test fuel. They have been sitting in the boat for quite awhile as I was using the other two tanks. Maybe the O ring on the these two tanks dried out.

Now to track down new O rings as I am having enough trouble coming up with the correct fuel connector.

I will not buy new tanks with the male connector built in. It just makes it that more difficult to diagnose problems as you can't replace the built in connector.

The dealer tried to talk me into a new tank that accepts any kind of connector, I may just have to invest in one to rule out dura tank problems.

-Don B

[mike]

I think my ordeal is finally over. First of all, I learned that the first 2 "attempts" to fix the problem (last week, and yesterday) were simply replacing spark plug caps (not the whole coil/wire/cap assemblies, as I had thought)... however, regardless, this was an absolute ridiculous waste of time as far as I'm concerned. As mentioned before, the symptom was that 2 of the cylinders would stop producing power, with the motor only running on #1. The mechanic was fairly certain it was the CDI, but the owner of the shop simply couldn't comprehend that a CDI could go bad, and insisted it had to be something else.

Anyway, last week they had replaced one spark plug cap (problem persisted). Yesterday they called and said they had replaced the other 2, and asked me to come sea trial the boat again, suggesting that I do it ASAP because they're all going on vacation next week. I kinda freaked at this point... I knew replacing this would not fix the motor, and since they were going to be out all next week, I'd be looking at that much more time before they could get a CDI shipped and installed.

Fortunately, the owner had headed my pleas last week to at least go ahead and order a CDI so that it would be on hand if replacing these stupid plug caps didn't fix it.

So, my entire day was spent out on the boat. I first went out for about an hour or so (with shiny new plug caps) to patiently wait for the problem to occur, as I knew it would. It did. On the way back, I passed the shop owner, who was on another boat with a customer. After I told him the problem was still happening, he decided to come aboard so he could see it for himself. Off we went, and a little while later, the problem started up again. He fiddled with it for a while, then told me the CDI was probably bad. Grrrrr.... that's what I had been saying... that's what his mechanic had been saying!

We began to head back to the shop, but by this point we had gone down the bayou pretty far. And, as luck would have it, the motor really got stuck in it's malfunction mode. So, we plodded along on one cylinder (which I'm sure is not too good for the motor), which, of course, meant a very slow trip back. Of course, right when we reached the no-wake areas near the shop, the motor sprang back to life.

Anyway, they replaced the CDI as I went off to get some lunch, and I returned to take it out again. After 2 hours, the problem had not happened, so I headed back to our slip and my wife picked me up to bring me back to the shop. So, the problem appears to be solved, but I will take it out this weekend for a 3 - 4 hour prolonged test to be absolutely certain.

In short, I'm not very pleased with how the shop handled this, but I'm thankful the boat is finally fixed.

--Mike

[Tony D-26X_SusieQ]

Mike,

I just called and now they can't get to my boat until next week. When I set up the repair over two weeks ago there was no question about them not getting to it this week. Now when they can't get to it until next week they give me the line about how the mechanic was a little over optimistic on what he could get done in two weeks.

And they said they like it when they overestimate time and get ahead of schedule. I told them I like that too.

-Don B

Well if all these shops handle the repairs the way Mike's service is being handled then it's no wonder they get backed up so far. When my boat was in the shop this spring I had the same trouble getting a repare date. I started asking how many boats they had ahead of mine and two days later they were done. Coincidence? Could be!

[sailpsych]

Mike,
"Saint's preserved." Glad to hear that the outboard gods finally smiled upon you. Almost makes you want to bill the dealer for time-lost. My Honda 50 is running a bit rough right now, but it may be poor fuel from a previous tank. I'm planning on putting some gas treatment in and running her out for 45 minutes to an hour at 3/4 throttle to see if that will clear it up at all.

Happy sails this weekend.

Bruce

[Don B]

I'm still waiting !!!!

I am now into the 2nd week past when the shop told me they would look at the Suzuki 50.

I went with this shop for two reasons. 1. It was recommended buy the Dockmaster and 2. It was a Suzuki dealer and I felt they would have the diagnostics to quickly ascertain what I was missing.

I will be calling the shop soon to find out what is taking so long and if I don't like the answer I will call another independent outboard repair person who advertises in Oriental, NC.

I originally tried to have the engine serviced by a reputable local albeit expensive boat shop but they don't touch outboards.

In the mean while you may have caught some of my posts about what kind of fuel connector by Suzuki uses and what kind of fuel connector by Dura-Tanks use. I am trying to obtain this info in order to better diagnose my engine problems myself.

The only web based Dura tank dealer I could find has not answered my question as to what kind of coneector the the ventless duratanks 6 gallons use.

I however believe that the Evinrude/Johnson connector is the correct one for both engine and gas tanks but am not 100 % sure.

I am ready to buy a extra gas tank with universal connector to use for testing this weekend if I don't hear from the repair shop.

-Don B

[Sibyl]

Don,
I know how frustrating this is. Perhaps if you call and tell them you're taking the boat elsewhere they'll look at it right away. I called and told my boatyard to not bother with the bottom paint on my boat since the season was half over....amazingly enough, after 2 months, "Oh, we just painted it." Paid for slip 4/7, finally splashed 7/3.

It's a major bummer.

Gail