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I think he's trying to avoid it happenning for that first "rare" time

Rick Less

pokerrick1 wrote:I think he's trying to avoid it happenning for that first "rare" time

Rick Less

The whole deal is managed risk. Be careful and use good sense and you'll have no issues.

I'd venture to say that more boaters are killed by falling off the back whilst taking a leak as are ever killed by propane on a boat.

If you all are just talking about those little Coleman propane bottles that I use on my marine grill yeah don’t worry about. I think if you emptied the entire contents of one in your boat the worst thing would happen is you would have a fire that would destroy your boat not an explosion. Well not unless until the fire reached you gas tanks. However if I ever get a big boat it will never have propane. I just came from the Annapolis Boat Sailboat show a couple weeks back the largest on the east coast of the USA and from looking around it is quit evident that propane is on its way out of boats and CNG is replacing it.

Hello,
I wouldn't discount the explosive power of 1 lb of propane inside an enclosed space. It's comments like that which set up uninformed boaters to get careless. A 1 lb canister in a Mac would seriously burn all inhabitants and do major damage to the boat's structure, if not blow the deck off. It is equivalent to 1/5 stick of dynamite.

whatever the risk. I am not willing to take that risk. Gas scares the ever living **** out of me. I wouldn't even buy a house with piped in gas! I have a low tollerance to risk when it involves gas (cng, propane, etc). Even with the alcohol stove, I fill it in the cockpit and carefully bring it inside. Keep the seal on the cover until we need it.

Still not crazy about propane in the new boat, but it has all the safety features - even if the flame goes out on the stove, that will shut the flow off as well. The tank is directly vented overboard, so I feel a bit more comfortable, but still a bit uneasy having it onboard all together. But dealing with my fear of gas in a boat.

Did anyone see the Disney movie Morning Light. Disney pick some young people and trained them to sail a B52 open ocean racer for the TRANSPAC, a race from California to Hawaii.

They cooked with a stove below deck that looked like 3 connected wire baskets with a removable water pot in each. On each end were gimbals to swivel when the boat heeled. On the bottom of each basket was a burner with what looked like screw on propane canisters. Has anyone seen this kind of stove?

Wally

Bluecrab wrote:They cooked with a stove below deck that looked like 3 connected wire baskets with a removable water pot in each. On each end were gimbals to swivel when the boat heeled. On the bottom of each basket was a burner with what looked like screw on propane canisters. Has anyone seen this kind of stove?

Like this?...Forespar Mini-Galley 2000

I wouldn't discount the explosive power of 1 lb of propane inside an enclosed space. It's comments like that which set up uninformed boaters to get careless. A 1 lb canister in a Mac would seriously burn all inhabitants and do major damage to the boat's structure, if not blow the deck off. It is equivalent to 1/5 stick of dynamite.

Thats true Don, but not entirely relevant to a 'safe use discussion' In counterpoint, I would argue that a handling a consumer bottle of propane below deck, in good repair, is SAFER than pouring from a gallon bottle of alcohol below decks. Its easy to imagine dropping the bottle and having alcohol pouring into your bilge, and thus creating a big problem. One of the things I have always worried about is someone throwing a bottle of alcohol in their bilge thinking 'its not propane' - bad idea.

This might be hard data to cull, but I would venture that EVERY propane incident referenced involved large (25#) cylinders and hard installs that have had some failure or lack of standard safety equipment outlined above. Consumer products are generally made to be 4 sigma idiot proof, so with relatively minor engineering controls you can get the advantage of the form factor and mitigate the risk of the contents.

To the moderators - didnt realise this thread would turn into religion....

kmclemore wrote:The whole deal is managed risk. Be careful and use good sense and you'll have no issues.... I'd venture to say that more boaters are killed by falling off the back whilst taking a leak as are ever killed by propane on a boat.

Everything we add to a boat is going to add complications ... and some of them, like a stove, will add risk. Alcohol vs bottled gas? Either one includes the hazards of fuel-leaks, fumes, and the hazard of an open flame belowdecks. Maybe a rail-mounted barbecue would be safer, but barbecues can explode too. I could argue that the only 100%-tried-and-truly-SAFE way to have hot food and drink aboard a boat is to cook it at home and bring it aboard in a Thermos jug.

What's the alternative? We find a way to manage the risk, to reduce it (if only in our minds) to an acceptable level. We might be able to install a "foolproof" system - as in an ABYC-style propane stove system - at a price. Or we might, through prudent practices, reach a similar low level of risk for a lower price.

I really like Chinook's Wallas stove/heater, because the combustion fumes are vented outside - as they are with a forced-draft furnace in a house. I did not like the $1700 price tag for a new one, but if I were spending extended periods of time aboard the boat in a cold climate - as they did on their Inside Passage trip - I might decide it was worth the price to me.

"That's too expensive" leads me to bottled gas or alcohol. Both add the risks of spilled (leaked) fuel and combustion fumes. Can I manage these risks? Certainly - to an extent. I can keep the fuel container out in the cockpit when I'm not actually cooking, and I can ventilate the cabin when I am running the stove. I can also make sure there's nothing near the stove that might catch on fire, and that the stove or cook-pot won't slide off the galley if the boat gets rocked.

My Kenyon Galley Express would seem to help me minimize the risks. The butane canister locks in with the flip of a lever that can only be flipped when the stove is shut off. I can secure it to the galley-top with a wing-nut through the countertop, and I have a pot-retaining ring I can mount if the anchorage is "rolly". While it's running, it's right at my elbow. And when I shut it off, I can immediately remove the fuel canister ("phut") and set it out-of-doors.

Could the Origo/Cookmate stoves be as safe? Very likely. Maybe safer - and certainly the "built-in" flush-mount stove, with its "pincer" pot-retainers, would be more stable in a rolly anchorage. I could fill the fuel canister outside the cabin, where I could wash any alcohol spills right down the transom with a bucket of water. I could keep the alcohol bottle where I now keep my butane cartridges - in a box inside the gas-tank lazarette ... but would I have to keep the Origo's fuel canister there, too, when I'm not cooking with it? Would enough alcohol evaporate from an Origo fuel canister in, say, 12 hours, to actually fill the cabin with fumes to an explosive level?

ANY of these "hot-food-aboard" systems will carry risks. We can minimize them by being smart - but even hot food in a Thermos can scald me, if I'm inattentive or stupid about it. Maybe I should stick to carry-out ... naah, I might capsize the dinghy trying to carry that pizza aboard over the transom...

I did just see a used Force 10 Diesel heater on craigslist Boston for 250 USD if anyone is in market for a good below deck heater..

Kelly Hanson East wrote:To the moderators - didnt realise this thread would turn into religion....

I did... we've been here many, many times before!

Rick Westlake wrote:

kmclemore wrote:The whole deal is managed risk. Be careful and use good sense and you'll have no issues.... I'd venture to say that more boaters are killed by falling off the back whilst taking a leak as are ever killed by propane on a boat.

Everything we add to a boat is going to add complications ... and some of them, like a stove, will add risk. Alcohol vs bottled gas? Either one includes the hazards of fuel-leaks, fumes, and the hazard of an open flame belowdecks. Maybe a rail-mounted barbecue would be safer, but barbecues can explode too. I could argue that the only 100%-tried-and-truly-SAFE way to have hot food and drink aboard a boat is to cook it at home and bring it aboard in a Thermos jug.

Well.... actually...

Kitchen Fires
According to statistics from the International Fire Chiefs Association and FEMA, kitchen fires account for approximately 30-45 percent of all home fires. Many kitchen fires have devastating results including:

• Loss of personal property

• Personal injury

• Death

The majority of kitchen fires are caused by cooking. Many of them can be avoided if proper safety measures and precautions are followed.

You can find danger any time you're dealing with fuels and heat, if you look close enough. I still say using bottled propane (properly) is perfectly safe.

Having said that, I hereby promise to have my relations let you all know if I should ever blow myself up.

As far as the "dangerous ' aspect of propane verses alcohol , as someone else said , its almost nonexistent . But it does happen .
So does a lot of other things , such as lightning , getting rammed by a whale , or running over a shipping container.
Sitting on the couch watching TV has risks !

With a little caution , its safe enough.

I went with propane , because of low cost of the stove verses the Origino and availability of fuel.

I use a catalitic heater on a disposable bottle at night , that works great and we haven't woke up dead , from it yet. Most boats are drafty enough , that you are going to get fresh air thru it.

1. Chances of being hit by lightning in a course of an 80 year life span 1:5000. I got hit in 1986.
2. Chances of being in an Aircraft accident 1:8.47million. I was in one in 1996.
3. Chances of being attacked by a shark 1:75000. I was attacked in 1989.
4. Out of 300 million people in the USA 9 drown daily. I almost downed 4 times in my life.
5. I have been stalked by a Mountain Lion have no idea of the chances of that.
6. I have been charged by a Female Bighorn Sheep what are the chances of that?

What I have learned for these occurrences is that if there is a one in what ever chance of being in something, it is a good chance of being me.

With 6500 people a year in the USA being injured by propane fires and causing 27 million dollars of damage I am not going to but my hand into that one to see how hot it is.
You can have you propane. In fact I wonder how much I can get for my Force 10 Grill on Craigslist.

Here's a video of a 1lb tank like those we carry around in our boats exploding, not something I'd want to be around if it happened on a Mac. I think a single portable tank like that in the video would cause catastrophic damage and the boat would sink almost immediately from this alon, with out even considering the secondary explosions as the other stored propane tanks and gas tanks in the cockpit cook off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roWRuCllpMA

I also happened to be flipping around on the TV last night and came across a piece on the explosion of a railroad tank car full of propane. Now that was something to see. Ranked near the top as one of the biggest explosions ever to happen in the US. The fireball was seen from 40 miles away. When it goes boom propane is really nasty stuff.