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Re: Installing a bilge pump
Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:03 am
by K9Kampers
I've been referencing Nigel Calder's material
LINK for the last twentyfive + years, I think more appropriate for recreational marine applications than 75 year old warships manuals. whatever gets ya there...
Re: Installing a bilge pump
Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:09 am
by BOAT
Yeah k9, lots of books at Amazon I bet - I just never get around to buying any books because of all the old Navy books laying around over here - I guess I need to buy some books. Most of the stuff I have is about electrical - I have a lot of old navy books with pictures of the electrical systems. On that stuff I can really only use the pictures because a lot of the voltages are strange voltages. I did get one book for electric stuff because they changes all the color coding on the wiring recently, (recent, well, since the seventies!) so I was out of date on the right color of the wires.
Re: Installing a bilge pump
Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:05 am
by Russ
K9Kampers wrote:I've been referencing Nigel Calder's material
LINK for the last twentyfive + years, I think more appropriate for recreational marine applications than 75 year old warships manuals. whatever gets ya there...
Nigel is an excellent source of how to do it right. This book looks good. Might have to put it on the Santa list.
Re: Installing a bilge pump
Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:34 am
by BOAT
The big deal for me that is really hard is the networking stuff - chartplotter to AP to wind instrument to AIS to radio and stuff like that - so far all I have is the chartplotter on a network with the engine and I got that far because of mastreb, but he is with a bigger boat now
so my big worries right now are how am I gonna get an AIS radio to talk to my chartplotter, and also getting an AP installed that can talk to the chartplotter. Anpother thing I would really like is some kind of way to monitor engine levels from my Ipad instead of going out to the helm and pressing a dozen buttons. I don't se that stuff in a lot of the books and they all seem to be specific to your network model.
Re: Installing a bilge pump
Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:55 pm
by K9Kampers
I can't offer any insights as to How, but I have to ask... Why is it necessary to have to be able to monitor OB engine levels from a remote location on a 26' boat? Unless you're charging batteries at anchor, wouldn't you be at the helm anyway while the engine is running? What levels are there to monitor on an OB and what would need to be adjusted while monitoring?...antimatter ratios, flux capacitor synchronization??
......
I think its rather sad how latest technology & apps have created the false need for everything to be monitored & displayed just because it can be!! - end rant
Re: Installing a bilge pump
Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:10 pm
by seahouse
K9Kampers wrote:I can't offer any insights as to How, but I have to ask... Why is it necessary to have to be able to monitor OB engine levels from a remote location on a 26' boat? Unless you're charging batteries at anchor, wouldn't you be at the helm anyway while the engine is running? What levels are there to monitor on an OB and what would need to be adjusted while monitoring?...antimatter ratios, flux capacitor synchronization??
......
I think its rather sad how latest technology & apps have created the false need for everything to be monitored & displayed just because it can be!! - end rant
Ahh because it's
there and it's easy! And as you say because it
can be (and couldn't be in an earlier time). And because inquiring minds just
have to know.
- B.
I can totally identify with the need. Well, from a practical point of view it allows tweaking and fine tuning, and allows small problems to show up and be addressed long before they get to be major expensive problems. It allows you to know what's actually going on in a system, instead of just imagining what's going on. Depending on how imaginative you are, that can lead to its own set of problems.
Whoo boy. This time of year we sure do get off on tangents in our posts, don't we?
Re: Installing a bilge pump
Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:37 pm
by Russ
K9Kampers wrote:I can't offer any insights as to How, but I have to ask... Why is it necessary to have to be able to monitor OB engine levels from a remote location on a 26' boat? Unless you're charging batteries at anchor, wouldn't you be at the helm anyway while the engine is running? What levels are there to monitor on an OB and what would need to be adjusted while monitoring?...antimatter ratios, flux capacitor synchronization??
......
I think its rather sad how latest technology & apps have created the false need for everything to be monitored & displayed just because it can be!! - end rant
I agree with the essence of this. However, a member on this forum used it as a data logger and created some nifty graphs showing ideal MPH graphs of speed vs RPMs. Nice to learn the best speed for fuel efficiency. Having the ability to download this data could be nifty.
Recently I acquired a dealer computer data to USB connector for my car. Amazing stuff the Techstream software can monitor about the engine, air controls etc. Can see the temp of all kinds of sensors and tweak all kinds of cool stuff only the dealer can do and most won't tell you they can do. From lowering all windows and opening moon roof when remote key fob is pressed to how loud the turn signal beep is. For us who love to tinker, this is like crack.
Re: Installing a bilge pump
Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:39 pm
by BOAT
I'm sorry, I was going to answer the question about "why monitor the motor" but I did not think my reason was very good so I just left it alone, but really, for me it's because I'm not very used to having a motor. In all my years on sailboats the motor was mostly just a convenience for getting in and out of a slip - in fact the only times a motor was really necessary was when at Avalon trying to get around the moorings or when in really tight places but mostly the motor was just for getting the boat off the trailer and back on the trailer and getting around in a marina. The outboards were tiny - 5 and 10 HP jobs -
Now I have this big thing on the back and I can be going 20 MPH out in the ocean in a straight line with the wife at the helm and the loud sound of that motor just seems foreign to me - all those gears and oil and parts and stuff roaring away and I'm sitting down there at the dinette wondering if all that noise is "normal" and "will the motor get hot at this speed" and other stuff. It would be nice to just open the IPAD and take a look for my own peace of mind when that thing is going on for hours on end on a long leg to Dana Point or something like that.
I guess i don't trust motors.
Re: Installing a bilge pump
Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:53 pm
by K9Kampers
I don't trust em either! I used to work on them but got out of that business when Evinrude had the FICHT system. Never worked on those and didn't envy those that were. Even with hearing loss, I can sense when something doesn't sound right. Not really inspired by the latest tech OBs, hence my reaction to the need to precision monitor the thing. Y'all make it sound like the operator can change engine parameters while underway... talk about potential for problems!
Re: Installing a bilge pump
Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:27 pm
by Russ
K9Kampers wrote: Y'all make it sound like the operator can change engine parameters while underway... talk about potential for problems!
Probably can make changes. However, I think it would be unwise to do so. Stock settings are probably just right.
Still fun to see what's under the hood/cowling.
Re: Installing a bilge pump
Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:17 pm
by tek
RobertB wrote:Maybe the original poster has more water than he wants to handle with a sponge. I agree that a sponge is fine for minor rain leaks or splashes from big waves, but what if he needs to pump out several gallons? What if he wants to keep his boat from sinking if there is a real issue and he is not around? Or if he does not appreciate fiberglass shards when squeezing out his sponge
I have considered this too, and have not acted since the amount of water I experience is minor and I keep my boat in the driveway (on the trailer). But if I were to add electric bilge pump(s), I think one of the low profile Whale pumps would work well in out boats
http://www.whalepumps.com/Marine/produc ... art-Family.
A single pump on a
would be best just in front of the batteries. To get the most water out, I would need three - adding one each side outboard of the ballast tank. I am not familiar enough with the
to make a specific recommendation.
The pump should be wired to a reliable electric source - in fact directly to the battery bypassing the breaker box. Wires should be sealed and high up as possible.
The pump discharge is likely best routed to a though hull above the water line in the stern - a backflow valve would be good here. Keep in mind that a pump rated for 500 gph may only put out 100 gph considering how they are rated and a typical installation may operate at a lower voltage, have piping losses, and losses due to the vertical head between the pump and the discharge.
Hope this answers the question and welcome tot he board.
Hoping for an additional opinion here, I've been considering the pump shown in this post to place in that low spot by the battery on my
. Its purpose is more for de-watering than fighting off any sinking ( I've had occasion with more water than I want to get rid of with a sponge. ) Would it be inappropriate to T it into the sink drain for the purpose of de-watering thereby eliminating the need of an additional thru-hull? I'd like to know any opinions on this idea.
Re: Installing a bilge pump
Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:49 pm
by Russ
tek wrote:
Hoping for an additional opinion here, I've been considering the pump shown in this post to place in that low spot by the battery on my
. Its purpose is more for de-watering than fighting off any sinking ( I've had occasion with more water than I want to get rid of with a sponge. ) Would it be inappropriate to T it into the sink drain for the purpose of de-watering thereby eliminating the need of an additional thru-hull? I'd like to know any opinions on this idea.
The danger here is the thru hull for the sink/cockpit drain is just above the waterline. Heavily loaded, mine is below the waterline. Best practices would call for the discharge well above the waterline.
So, you have the issue of water coming back in that thru hull. You could T into it. The M already has a T that joins the cockpit drain with the sink drain. You MUST make sure the bilge pump loops high above the waterline, even when heeled over or you risk back flow of water and sinking your boat.
You will need to create a loop and anti-siphon vent. It is important. I suppose you could loop it high back behind the aft berth an come back down to the existing T.
The other concern is if the thru hull is clogged, your pump will have no place to go and will backup in the sink. The pressure from the pump would naturally push water back up to the sink. A 1 way valve might fix that. Bilge pumps have trouble getting the last 1/4" of water. Then whatever water is in the hose to the loop comes rushing back down when the pump shuts off.
For occasional use, I would have a hose coiled up and just dump it in the sink. Finish up with a sponge.
Re: Installing a bilge pump
Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:23 pm
by tek
RussMT wrote:tek wrote:
Hoping for an additional opinion here, I've been considering the pump shown in this post to place in that low spot by the battery on my
. Its purpose is more for de-watering than fighting off any sinking ( I've had occasion with more water than I want to get rid of with a sponge. ) Would it be inappropriate to T it into the sink drain for the purpose of de-watering thereby eliminating the need of an additional thru-hull? I'd like to know any opinions on this idea.
The danger here is the thru hull for the sink/cockpit drain is just above the waterline. Heavily loaded, mine is below the waterline. Best practices would call for the discharge well above the waterline.
So, you have the issue of water coming back in that thru hull. You could T into it. The M already has a T that joins the cockpit drain with the sink drain. You MUST make sure the bilge pump loops high above the waterline, even when heeled over or you risk back flow of water and sinking your boat.
You will need to create a loop and anti-siphon vent. It is important. I suppose you could loop it high back behind the aft berth an come back down to the existing T.
The other concern is if the thru hull is clogged, your pump will have no place to go and will backup in the sink. The pressure from the pump would naturally push water back up to the sink. A 1 way valve might fix that. Bilge pumps have trouble getting the last 1/4" of water. Then whatever water is in the hose to the loop comes rushing back down when the pump shuts off.
For occasional use, I would have a hose coiled up and just dump it in the sink. Finish up with a sponge.
Having the thru-hull clogged and back up into the sink is a scenario I hadn't thought of, which is exactly why I had posed the question.
As for using the sink drain for discharge when not clogged, I would've thought it would be little different than pouring the water into the sink, and I've never seen water back up at the galley sink. Also keeping in mind I'm considering this primarily for the purpose of dewatering the low spot in the boat.
Which begs the question, with the factory design (no loop/vent) what keeps us from the possibility of taking on water through the galley sink to begin with?
Re: Installing a bilge pump
Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:30 pm
by Tomfoolery
tek wrote:Which begs the question, with the factory design (no loop/vent) what keeps us from the possibility of taking on water through the galley sink to begin with?
The sink top is already very high up. The boat would almost have to be upside-down for water to get into the cabin from the basin.
Re: Installing a bilge pump
Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:45 pm
by RobertB
Personally, I would not rely on a hose into the sink. The sink drain is so small a large bug can cause a clog.