Problems with Excessive Heel & Rounding Up

[waternwaves]

Moe, et. Al

Ya kind a put a lot of points in your paragraphs and diagrams.. but since I am back from a nice windy trip to Neah Bay.I guess I have it all fresh in my mind,.. and a tired butt and wet boat for some reason.lol someone really needs to come up with an exercise regimen for cockpit bound sailors.

I have seen many things in the last couple of weeks.and even the murrelet with the turquoise back feathers.. heheheheh;) when I went in to Seattle to get some more goodies, (Even FM knows where to get good service in Seattle) (and no I dont work for them or receive any kickback for stating the truth.. BWY Is a great outfit to deal with..Between Bill at B4sale and BWY.. I am reasonably comfortable breaking anything on my boat. ) and I need a heavy storm jib.

Like many here On my X I use a Vang and a Boomkicker, for leach tension.and boom support., the M boats I have looked at are interesting in their methods of attaching the kicker and the vang tail to the base of the rotating mast.to keep them free.

To improve pointing and handling, I do mainsheet though railing clips.and it does funky things to the boom and sail footwhen pulled hard and upwind... (on the front railing this ends up pulling the boom into a small bow..and deepening the fill of the sail) which aerodynamically will result in more lift, and a little more drag..for that extra half a point one pics up on ground track.

Angle of attack is the critical element here.and a point where the Ms (even with their short traveler) have an advantage. Two reasons I really like sheeting to the windward rail are 1) improvement of the angle of attack and, 2) in upset conditionsI have another 15 to 20 degrees of boom travel available to ease off the wind (Ok, OK, those of you who know me know I end up dumping sheets way too oftenlol) while still maintaining some semblance of control on the boat. (but I have a much more controllable boom7 unloaded 1 to 2 points before it swings out of range)

One of the things that I have trouble with my sailboats is that I keep thinking of the mast/sail combination as a fixed wing configurationwrong analogy. ( I learned to fly after I learned to fall, but in flying they teach only the FAA way..) Sailboats dont fly like planes, they fall like kitesconverting altitude/wind to forward distance traveled., sailboat main foils are designed that as soon as you are heeling you are warping the wing(by adding some of the twist Moe refers to).. ( and moving the stall line) also because the captured air in the sail does not want to stay in the pocket and will move to the closest lower pressure area..in a sailboats case, that is normally slightly rising along the leech..as our telltales show us. The upper sail is twisting into the wind (losing lift and stalls first) If someone really wants to compare to an airplane flying.. the closest approximation is in a turning descent with no power on.

There have been many designs of rigid ribbed and composite rigid sails which have even AOA throughout their height but with heeling, spill velocities , and weight aloft, the gains from these structures generally are not worth the corresponding increase in hull strengths and weights (all of which ends up above CB and CG)

Getting back to Moes major comment if the tightness of the leech allows the top to luff first then the sail is not presented evenly to the apparent wind on the sail. Sheeting to luff the leech evenly will obtain more lift out of the top of the sail, and allows more power to be obtained out of the wind in a close beat..

For a reach I still occasionally use the rails (instead of just the pedestal ring), but like most everyone.. I sail to the aft telltales (the belly of the sail) so as to stay on reach.

And the more windward the boom is sheetedthe less downward force on the boom, and the deeper the sail. I cant find it in Chapmans/ royces.at the moment.but there is something that says the greatest thrust on the sail is a result from the greatest differential pressure between the two sides of the sailand this occurs at sail conditions with the greatest sail depth over the largest area, for a given sheet tension.

Moral of the story
When beating, If you can sheet more to windward, you can maintain better control, reduce heel, fill the sail more, and effect a greater change when releasing sheets.without causing the boat to round up so far in a recovery.

JMHO

|>arren

[ALX357]

exactly what are or what is "mainsheet thru railing clips". of course it sounds like you are pulling the mainsheet around the pulpit rail, or clipping it to the windward rail, but is that a separate clip, or just re-locating the entire mainsheet attachment back and forth on each tack ?
what kind of clip? can give parts description ? thanks...

[tidalwave]

My 26 dealer is also a sail maker. He suggested another set of reef points be sewn in.
I got the mainsail back with the new reef points higher than the factory set. He said the shorter sail would be better in very high winds.
Was this a waste of my money?

Several forum members have mentioned having a second set installed below the factory reef points. Is this to de-power the main slightly but not enough to warrant a full storm reefing?
Because my new reefing is so high on the sail...should I just relieve some of the mainsheet tension when gusts come up?

[baldbaby2000]

My 26 dealer is also a sail maker. He suggested another set of reef points be sewn in.

After my sail in high winds last weekend I've been thinking of adding another set of reef points up higher too. Let me know how yours work out.

[delevi]

Went out yesterday for a day sail in San Francisco Bay, with winds around 15 knts, picking up to 25-30 in the afternoon. I know I should have been reefing but I wanted to try out all the great suggestions from you guys. After tightening up my turnbuckle and moving the mast closer to vertical (I don't have a tool to measure the degrees) and also tightening the upper shrouds, I was anctious to see some reduction in weather helm and wanted to really push the rig. I was on a close reach most of the way, sheeting the traveler to winward. Moe & Co. are right. That main really twisted out and the belly of the sail was quite full. The top luffed a bit, at least I had to set it this way to maintain less than 30 degree heel. When the wind picked up I furled in some jib. There was a noticable difference in reduced weather helm and better control. Then there was trouble. After changing course to head to my destinattion, (I was sailing to Berkeley to check out their Marina) I turned to a broad reach. The wind really picked up, approximately 30 knts, however at that point of sail, the heal was no more than 10 degrees. I was going about 7.5 knts with the main out to the spreaders & shrouds and a full working jib. All of the sudden I got spun around towards the wind about 120 degrees. My rudders had no effect. Uncleating the main sheet did nothing either, since it was out so far to begin with. When I regained control and got the boat back on course, the same thing happend a minute later. I dropped the traveler to leeward to see if that would help, but a minute later, the same thing. At that point, white caps were everywhere and I was getting tossed around pretty good. The wind was gusting to 30+ It was late in the afternoon, so I decidied to drop sails, reconnect my motor and power back to harbor. I will save the Berkeley trip for another day. By the way, disconnecting the motor makes for a much better sailing experience. Thanks to all you guys for that suggestion. I have rigged up the linkage with a simple hitch pin. I have a bolt on my transom installed by the dealer to secure the engine from flopping around, so the whole process of connecting & reconnecting is about 10-20 seconds. Huge difference! As for my broaching issue... Anyone experience this? I realize these were reefing conditions, but why would this happen on a broad reach?

Leon (skipper in training)

[Andy26M]

Leon -

What was teh sea state when you were getting rounded up? I.e. how big were the waves, and were they comng from dead astern or from one side or the other? Were you moving faster than the waves or were they overtaking you?

I ask, because in certain situations with the 26M, wave action seems to completely invalidate the rudders, in which case the sails and daggerboard have free reign with your boat. I've had experiences similar to what you describe while motoring.

- AndyS

[Andy26M]

For those theorizing about how to set up the 26M, other comparison points between the M and X that need to be remembered:

1) The 26M main is 20 sq. ft. larger than the X (stock sails).

2) The 26M is sold with main only, the jib is an option (was it like that on the X?). The owner's manual makes a point of noting that "the 26M balances very nicely with main alone". So, I have to assume that the default factory rig setup on the 26M is based on not having a jib at all. Hence, the need for a lot of adjustments.

The 26M mast is indeed supposed to have pre-bend, per the manual it is only about one inch though. To get the bend you have to play with tension of the shrouds and forestay since there is no backstay - and it is a very time consumiong process since the stock vernier shroud adjusters can't be adjusted on the water. I sailed my M all summer last year and never got it exactly right yet...

- AndyS

[Catigale]

Leon - you were only seeing 18-22 apparent wind on that broad reach since you were heading down wind. When you got turned towards the wind you felt the true wind, and 30 mph winds are 'head home under motor' winds for most any Macgregor unless you are of expert class - at least two levels above my capability...three on a bad day....

[ALX357]

You can adjust the stock Vernier shroud adjusters on the water, mast-up,with 2 scratch-awls, tapered tools like marlinspikes, available from any hardware store. As long as they are tapered, and have a smaller diameter than the holes, it can be done even under tension by degrees; find a partially open hole which when the awl is forced into, will creep the shroud slightly in the looser, or tighter direction, .... it should not be able to enter the hole completely yet.... then keeping tension on it (remember you do have the other shroud there too, so your awl is not the only thing holding up the mast) ....still tension holding the awl partially in the hole, remove the ring-ding and adjuster pin, and then force the awl the rest of the way in to its present hole... The adjuster will be slightly tighter or looser than before.
Now there will be other partially open holes on the adjuster, so find one that will creep in the direction you want again, using the other of the 2 awls you bought. Doing this several times, (or maybe only once) you will arrive at the place you need, then you have to go a bit further to relieve the tension on the correct hole, and holding the other hole partially open by CAREFULLY withdrawing the awls just enough to let the correct hole line up, take out the awl from the new pin location hole, and re-pin, + ring-ding. I realize now that this explanation seems overly detailed, and once you have the 2 awls in your hands, the process becomes alot more obvious.. Don't fall off or stab yourself, you awl, ...er.. y'all.

[Moe]

Can't you relieve tension on one shroud by pulling the other inboard, like the manual says... even on the water?

There's also the Bill@Boats4Sail Rig Adjusting Tool. I haven't tried it on the shrouds, but it worked well on the lifelines.

--
Moe

[ALX357]

Bill's adjuster is his own invention of a vice-grip and welded-on, or brazed-on pins, or something like that.... the BWY tool is kinda hard to visualize in action, but they say it's easy. As for pulling the other shroud, yup that seems the simplest way.... didn't really think of that because it takes .... um three hands, maybe four. Or some creative body English..... push one shroud with knee, hold other shroud at the upper adjuster, pull out pin with other hand, don't drop bottom part of ajuster or it will be hard to reach and so forth. Maybe i'm missing something easier.

[Frank C]

Can't you relieve tension on one shroud by pulling the other inboard, like the manual says... even on the water?

.

Well, seems to me that this would be easy with a line from a mast cleat, out around a shroud, then 'round the mast & cleated again. However, I fail to see how it would relieve tension on the opposing shroud ... guess it's just too early here (6am)!

(working in Cambridge GB this week, same as Rome & Amsterdam?).

[Tom Spohn]

Leon,
I'm with Andy on this one. Don't know about SF, but here in Puget Sound 25-30 knot winds can produce 3-5 ft waves, especially if the wind is opposing the current. If the wind was coming in over your rear quarter and the waves were hitting you the same way, the nose of the boat was climbing up one wave and then sliding down into the next trough. As the nose hits the trough with the back of the boat up in the air the aspect of the sail to the wind decreases just like you had added a lot of twist. (Fold a piece of paper into a triangle and imitate a pitching boat to see what I mean.) The boat decelerates; the next wave hits and spins you into the trough and a broad reach. Now with lift on the sail you continue around till you are going up wind. If at the same time you hit the trough and decelerate the bottom of your dagger board hits the opposing current you have quite a bit to try to overcome. As to steerage; you only have steerage when the boat is moving forward (or backward ) If you hit the trough and spin you are momentarily without way and steerage unless you force the issue with your motor. Don't know if this is what happened to you, but I have come close a few times on my M (and once on my X).

I suppose a really good sailor knows how to sail the Mac through these conditions, but I find it really challenging just to motor through them. I keep the speed low, but frequently have to jab the throttle a bit to keep the boat going where I need it to go. Most I have been out in is about 20-25 knots and I found that enough.

[ALX357]

Frank... i see that would work ok, to run a line around a same-side shroud, adjusting on one side at a time that way... then switch everything to the other side no problem. Sometimes when i am designing cold-fusion reactors, the simplest things escape me.

[Frank C]

Oh, duh! Moe was referring to upper vs. lower shroud on same side of boat ... now I get it

Also Tom, sailing in that wave-chasing scenario, the rudder loses steerage since the overtaking wave reverses waterflow across the rudder's surface. As you observe, the foils then simply become levers, hanging down in the water. I've felt it, but didn't actually comprehend the problem until reading your post.