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walt wrote:My 13 yo son went to sailing school and they told him boats are faster when not heeled so much

I'd agree that those instructors were mis-stating things - like Eric says, you cannot generalize like that. What the instructors should have told the kids was that boats like the ones they are learning on sail best when flat. Usually, that's a small, unballasted or light boat which can easily be heeled/flattened by changing the crew's position on the boat.

Wind and weather also play a part, so the "rules" are not set even for the same boat and equipment on different days. One clear example is very light wind - "most" boats will be faster in very light winds if you induce some heel to leeward: make gravity do the work of keeping the belly in the sail rather than wasting what little wind you have lifting the sail.

- Andy

A trunk gasket for the CB trunk has been discussed here, but nobody's posted the Mod. I snagged a 4' long strip of vinyl, about a foot wide. It's sold in rolls, used to drape the entrance to commercial refrigerators. I thought I might try making a CB gasket someday. It's only about 3/16" thick, so it might be too floppy for the job ... still hangin' in the garage.

walt wrote:My 13 yo son went to sailing school and they told him boats are faster when not heeled so much

To me, heel angle is an issue of ideal vs. practical....

I believe that in all conditions (except the low-wind case described by Andy26M above), the *ideal* heel angle is pretty much 0 degrees, or close to it. It's not, however, practical to keep an M, X or any displacement boat that way under sail in all conditions. More heel angle = less sail efficiency = more weather helm = more drag.

So I think it's an issue of "what heel angle is my practical optimum?". IOW - Beyond the point where you can shift weight in the boat to reduce heel, there's some point where the ill-effects of heeling turn the tide in favor of reefing (also less efficient but better off). IMHO, this is a lot less than 45+ degrees, etc I'm betting more like 25 - 30 degrees, but I'm sure it depends on a lot of things.

~Bob

The X vs M debate/question always seem to have an active thread. Imagine what will happen when MacGregor changes the current M to the Z?

The important thing is to USE your boat! And I would say Mac Users (on average) use their boats more than the Catalina 44 Morgan sitting next to me in the slip....don't know why that is the case.....but there seems to be some truth in it!

There is another factor to consider when heeling, and that is the reduction of wetted surface. Heeling exposes the most efficient hull shape which is rounder than the planing shape. I measured speed with Daniel (Baldbaby) last year, and it turned out that 30 degrees upwind was faster than 20-25 degrees, by 1/2 knot, in pretty high winds? 15 kts?

Andy26M wrote:

One clear example is very light wind - "most" boats will be faster in very light winds if you induce some heel to leeward:

In very light winds I don't see many keel boats out. These boats are very heavy and need more than very light wind.

Also, it's not that easy to induce some heel in very light wind conditions.

than the Catalina 44 Morgan sitting next to me in the slip....don't know why that is the case.....but there seems to be some truth in it!

they have money left over to use for sailing?????

GASKET .... GASKET .....

anyone




ModsNote: as mentioned above, the CB gasket has been discussed here ... search trunk gasket ~fc

There is another factor to consider when heeling, and that is the reduction of wetted surface. Heeling exposes the most efficient hull shape which is rounder than the planing shape.

This is probably true on the 26M. In fact I believe in the manual they state that something like 10 degrees heel will help. With a displacement type boat (not the macs) you probably want to sail it flat.

An extreme example are the Scows. We used to race c and e-scows. They were originally designed based on an ancient handicap system in place at the time. When sailed flat they're not that fast but put them at about 20 degrees heel and the shape of the hull in the water goes from flat to a hyperbola (this is intentional) and the boat just takes off! This might be somewhat true on the X since it has somewhat of a flat bottom.

Daniel

I believe the owner's manual says anything over 25 degrees and you lose performance. I would span it from 25-35 i.e. about the same speed at 35 with full canvas vs. 25 deg reefed. That said, it's a lot of work running with full canvas at 35 deg and keeping her on her feet. The boat really starts to slow down at 40-45, provided you haven't rounded up by then.

Leon

Is it true that the 26X will be faster (unballasted, and under power with a 50 HP of course)at about 3 miles per hour more then the 26M!
And the reason is the 300 pounds more weight from the permanent ballast on the 26M
So, as advertised in the mac gregor demo video,can the 26X go to 24 miles/ per hour , unballasted,and with just the mast up and a small sail on board , and no extra weight , except 2 adults on board ?
thanks for reply!

With a 50 HP motor and approx 2500 lbs of boat, the margins are quite large i.e. much depends on weight on board, sea state, currant, wind, prop pitch, etc. I don't recall any owner claiming to hit 24 mph with a 50hp under any conditions. I have a 50 hp Etec on my My top speed was 22 mph but that was only achieved twice and for a brief moment. Under most conditions, my boat will do 17-19 mph with 2-4 people on board. In very calm seas with just me on board, I can sustain 20 mph+ All numbers are w/o ballast, main on boom, furled jib and extra 150 lbs in my ballasted keel. When I add ballast, I lose about 4 mph. This number goes up substantially with crew on board. Fully loaded boat with 4-6 people and ballast, 10-12 mph tops. Realistically 10 because with all that load it seems to struggle at WOT, so I back it off a bit.

Leon

Not knowing much about the mechanics of sailing yet I can only go on my observations but in light winds our M certainly is faster on the GPS at or less than 10 deg but at 15 knot winds it seems better with fractionally more.
I tried to screw it up by tightening up but the GPS said it was actually slower or of little benefit, maybe just my inexperience.
After sailing for several weeks with other M's (both models) and X's with a Mack 28 as well I would be hard pressed to say that any were better than another, it just depends on what you want to achieve.
On several occasions I did note that even though I was the most inexperienced sailor and was pulling a very heavy aluminium dinghy I could pace the X's but two M's left me well behind and the Mack 28 went by in a blur (well not really a blur but)
As for powering, load and the correct prop seems to make a hull of a lot of difference, when loaded up I change to the Hydrus prop but as recently we did a trip power only, we changed to the high speed prop for more speed and economy whereas under load the reverse would be true using the same prop.
You have to compare apples to apples and unless all the parameters including aims are the same the results will be different.
I always liked the idea of the swing keel but after having a couple of senior moments and forgetting to lift all boards, I think the stiff DB may have saved the flimsy rudders. Even with me telling the wife to gun the motor we just sat there and spun until I decided something was not quite right, really must learn to wait until beaching before breaking out the Queensland diesel (bundy rum).
Really like the easy access and open cockpit but also like the easy access to the large aft berth too.
Really liked the idea of the shower in the X but extra moisture in the boat in 98% humidity is not good either.

Not to offend m'ers here, but with the x it was love at first sight, while the m left me pining for my old girlfriend.

I really believe Roger likes experimenting and Mike Inmon confirmed the x mold was worn out, hence the change. The new m was a nice try at making sailing purists slightly more happy, but corrupted the x's perfection as a true powersailor.

I really resent the way he belittled the x when comparing it to the m-- real stupid to slam your most successful concept ever. Reminds me of the stupid new Ford ads--"now we're serious about cars again". Ironic he used to work there.

Rolf

I really resent the way he.....oh, oh...cant talk now...sailing....

Never mind......