Problems with Excessive Heel & Rounding Up

[Catigale]

In a shameless self promotional post my Mod on Quick Release Forestay Lever makes the vernier adjustment just a "snap"

My 7 year old opens and closes the lever while I adjust and balance away. OPening the lever takes away the tension so that you can easily walk the vernier into the right hole. I use a crayon to keep track of things in case I slip during the process. The other nice feature of this is the ease of rigging the forestay with furler.

[delevi]

Tom, Andy, Catigale,

Yes, I believe this is probably what happened. I'm not sure if I was overtaking the waves or they were overtaking me, but they were probably in the 4-5 ft range, coming from behind, but at a bit of an angle. While motoring in large waves I would have the prop occasionally come out of the water, but was never spun around like this. I suppose not having sails up when motoring helped the cause. I suppose that dropping sails and motoring back to shelter is the solution here, unless any of you know a way to deal with the problem. There was a keel boat nearby on the same course as I who didn't round up/broach as I did. I suppose haveing 10 times the weigh must make a difference.

I read a post on this site about a couple who sailed from Washington to Alaska on their Mac. They were hit with some nasty weather a few times. On such a trip, heading for shelter was not really an option.
Brave souls.

[ALX357]

Catigale, i don't know if this thread is raveling, but here are photos of my version of the forestay adjuster and tensioner lever, taken and adapted from someone else's mod on this site, and made up from stock adjuster parts.
( The furler drum is raised about a foot or more of the deck - enough to see under the Geona while sailing. ) The long throw makes the tensioner pretty tight, from an easy to attach beginning position, and the long lever makes it easy to get the tension.
The aft part is the adjuster extension, the ajusters interlocked and stuffed with washers where needed to keep them tight and from twisting, while the forward facing parts are the tensioning lever.
The lever pivots in the rear hole, and pins to the front hole of the tang, while the stay extension is pinned further forward on the lever. If one of these main pins fail or falls out, the other will hold the forestay. The large round disk is the head of a BWY solid quick-pin, (has a ring-ding on the other end ), makes it easy to hang onto, and push-pull, and attach a wire retention tether.
With careful trimming of the pivoting adjuster piece, the whole set-up can be pinned (with the same pins ) to remain firmly in the position you see when it is not holding up the mast, and trailers fine without flopping around at all.

[Tom Spohn]

Frank C.
I never thought of it that way, but you are absolutely right! Once again you have proved the value of this board in that information shared is invaluable. Your observation also firms up my belief that the only way through these seas is to have the "iron genny" on to be prepared to make way to allow steerage. Thanks,

[Catigale]

ALX357

Thats a clever, clever mod....I like the fact that

1. It requires no unique parts
B Its simple and the parts can be used elsewhere on the boat as 'spares'
(iii) It puts redundancy, aka safety, on the most critical part of the rigging

I dont like that -

I cant find any fault with it..

[Frank C]

Frank C.
I never thought of it that way, but you are absolutely right! Once again you have proved the value of this board in that information shared is invaluable.

Yeppers Tom - maybe it's word association? ... maybe just synergy!
As I read your post I also realized that motoring in a following sea will be easier to handle next time by just recalling the dynamics. Now I realize why I like the Big Suzukis - permits keeping boat speed ahead of the waves, maintaining steerage.

I cant find any fault with it..

[Andy26M]

Good posts about shroud adjusting all, and I concur you could do it on the water

I, on the other hand, could not possible carry enough pins and rings to do it, because when I am hanging upside down over the side of the boat I have a real tendency to drop thingys into Davy Jones' Locker...

- AndyS

[ALX357]

Catigale...
well it does have the fault of looking kinda odd, ungainly, but if one subscribes to the belief that form should follow function, we're ok... thanks for the compliment. and like i did say, the original idea was previously posted on this site by some Mac sailor, and i just made it more so...

[bscott]

A back stay adjuster on a fractional rig will pull the top of the mast slightly aft while forcing the middle of the mast forward---flatening the main. To compensate for a slackened forestay, you must harden up the forestay by tightening the jib halyard. This will flatten the luff of the jib.
The main halyard must also be hardned to flatten the main. I see no reason to harden the vang on a close reach as it's primary use is to flatten the main on a broad reach. Cunninghams will be sufficient.

The Harken OO roller furler will allow you to harden the jib halyard.

A standard jib/genny when roller/reefed/ furled will produce a bag in the sail. Only head sails designed specifically for roller/reefing/ furling will maintain a proper shape when furled to 50%. Beyond that, the foot of the sail will ride too high above the deck and raise the CG.

Since the rotating mast is only effective in light wind conditions, why not install a back stay? It is only used in heavy winds on a close reach--all other times it should be OFF.

The MAC mail sails can be re-cut to reduce bagging--a good time to install the second reef and a Cunningham cringle.

[Frank C]

A back stay adjuster on a fractional rig will pull the top of the mast slightly aft while forcing the middle of the mast forward---flatening the main. To compensate for a slackened forestay, you must harden up the forestay by tightening the jib halyard. This will flatten the luff of the jib.
The main halyard must also be hardned to flatten the main. I see no reason to harden the vang on a close reach as it's primary use is to flatten the main on a broad reach. Cunninghams will be sufficient...

bscott, Maybe you're referring primarily to the 26M ...
but even there, I'm not sure that I'd fully agree. Besides:

1. 95% of Macs use CDI furlers that don't use a jib halyard;
2. ergo for 26X, I crank-on backstay and suffer the sagging jib luff.
3. I've never seen or read here of a Mac set up to use Cunningham, tho it's easy to add ...
4. But perhaps less effective than adding a heavy-duty vang ...

Pulling harder on the vang has a significant effect on your rig, especially upwind. Besides tightening your leech, it bends the mast and flattens the main. Many boats use a technique called vang sheeting when sailing upwind in a breeze. If you don't vang sheet, one problem you have is that when you ease your mainsheet in a puff, you allow the leech to twist and you make the mainsail fuller (because less leech tension means less mast bend). This is not good in a puff. See here for more

I use my Garhauer rigid vang as a poor-man's traveler. It's certainly a well-accepted tactic to harden the vang going upwind. It's even more effective for some here because the RV can apply 12:1 leverage at about 40% aft along the boom ... hence, the vang is especially effective at flattening the Mac's mainsail. Finally, it's even more appropriate for the 26X, most of which lack a traveler ... so it partially covers another function not available from the Cunningham. (Note: it's quite evident that the gooseneck might suffer in this application - be forewarned that mine has broken twice).

In fact, some of the small racing craft have been removing travelers in favor of a heavy-duty vang. I could probably find a dozen webpages that describe it, but North Sails website puts it quite clearly:

Leave the vang completely slack until overpowered. Then take the slack out of it so that when a puff hits the main can be eased slightly with out losing leech tension. As the breeze picks up more (until constantly overpowered and the sheet is always eased) trim the vang much harder. This bends the mast and flattens the main and lets you play the mainsheet in the puffs with out loosing main leech or jib luff tension. The idea is that in very heavy winds, the vang is set hard enough that the mainsheet acts like a traveller and the need for an actual traveller is eliminated.

Finally, you're certainly spot-on about Macs benefitting from better quality sails, or perhaps a recutting. And I agree that the backstay might help a 26M in heavier winds. However, I'm not sure the remainder of an M's rig will deliver the same backstay benefits as for an X. The mast section is much heavier ... probably with lots less prebend than the X ... so maybe an RV is the answer to bending the M's mast too. Tom?

[bscott]

The X that we sailed had a traveler installed which was much more effective than the standard 4:1 vang which we also doubled as a preventer.

All our racer/cruisers had Harken 00 because they were better constructed, were less inclined to foul, and had double luffs for easier head sail changes---they allowed us to tune the headsail with the halyard and could be winched in if necessary. You get what you pay for with Harken stuff.

The J 22/24 one designs we raceed all have travelers. Working the traveler is many times faster than vang sheeting and can be done by most short handed sailors. These fractional rigged boats have a much stouter mast (equal to the M) which can easily bend the mid mast with an 8:1 back stay. I think your drawing is slightly exaggerated but I do agree that the vang slightly effects the lower 1/3 of the mast. I don't recommend vang sheeting over a traveler system for the short handed crew because it forces one crew to leave the windward seat (or rail) to move to the center of the boat to work the vang which ultimately unbalances an already tender boat.

If there is one advantage the stock M has is the traveler---not so sure about the rotating mast and the serious swept back spreaders (down wind main sail interference) and no back stay---but most boats become modified as their skippers become more experienced.

I am looking for a used M now and will probably add the back stay and change the spreaders for better down wind performance.

Thanks for the heads up on the North Sail web site.

[Frank C]

That drawing is from the linked webpage. I agree that a 4:1 vang simply cannot have the necessary impact. The reasons the Garhauer is so effective are
1. massive purchase (available as either 12:1 or 16:1) and
2. longer than average.

The RV's extra length adds leverage to pull the sail taut, and it's purchase has significant impact on lower mast bend. It also pulls an arc in the boom that can be alarming ... but is obviously effective for flattening the mainsail.

I also have the backstay rigged at 8:1, but I am candidly nervous to pull as much with it. The top of this mast seems pretty tender. Besides, as mentioned above the vang doesn't need much play when overpowered, seems to serve better, while the mainsheet provides ample play.

As I've reported here before, using main at reef-1 with full jib my 26X GPS has shown a steady 7+ knots on 3 different days. Each time was close reaching in whitecaps with about 18 knots of steady wind, each time continuous for 15 to 30 minutes. Absent basic rig controls (as delivered) the stock boat simply cannot do that. In fact, I suspect it can't be done without the rigid vang, or a much better mainsail. So pending improvements are:

1. traveler (simply because I have the stuff)
2. rudders?
3. mainsail
4. Schaefer Snapfurl (just a personal pref over Harken)

I have all the materials for adding traveler, but I don't really want it in obstructing the cockpit. I'll do it anyhow someday. Considering recent rudder reports here, it seems that improved rudders should be an essential next upgrade. Finally, I imagine that a better cut, higher quality mainsail would make it a bunch easier to achieve fun performance, with lots less stress on the rig and controls.

[bscott]

Our main concern about the traveler was the light weight boom---so it needs to be strengthened. I had a Schaefer (can't remember the model) that had extruded alum. foils that snapped together---very high performance system but we damaged the foils during mast raising/lowering---the Harken is a one piece flex plastic foil (similar to the CD---but stronger) that does not take a set while coiled on deck.

Sounds like your Garhauer is a good alternative to a traveler system.

[Catigale]

One addition to those contempating the adjustable vernier forestay mod - either along the lines of my Mod post or ALX357's elegant solution above...

I secure the ringdings and pins with nylon locking wirewraps - the one-use zip ties that you bundle stuff up with.

THis makes sure the rings dont walk out of the pins and the mast comes down, third level of protection from this.

[Frank C]

... I secure the ringdings and pins with nylon locking wirewraps - the one-use zip ties that you bundle stuff up with ... makes sure the rings dont walk out of the pins and the mast comes down, third level of protection from this.

Great idea. This one belongs among the top-ten inexpensive Killer Mods

Ring-dings absolutely walk-out of clevis pins, so they need the help. Just be sure to use zip-ties as backup, in addition to, not instead of ring-dings. I use zips to tie a mesh screen to a wrought iron fence and they need annual replacement - Nylon zips are very suseptible to UV degradation.