MacGregorSailors.com

Great news!!

Of course now you have a bunch of people dying to hear what the problem was.

--Russ

Leon--good for you

Can't wait to hear about the solution and what ever was wrong with your engine has been "fixed" in later years--my 08 has been flawless so far Thanks for the report.

Bob

LEON
Come on don't keep us waiting

We need to know what was wrong and how he fixed it, both for us and prospective Etec buyers.

FTR mine is purring like a kitten but then the other motor was last year prior to leaving home too?

Bob

OK. The whole story... Back when I picked up my boat from the mechanic, he told me that he will try to get the west coast technical rep from BRP to run my boat and see if he can solve the problem. About 6 weeks ago, Dan Arena from Arena Yachts called me to give me a heads up that this guy is coming out on May 18 and to have the boat there on the water, ready for testing. Arena Yachts work closely with the outboard shop I've been dealing with, being located in the same marina. on 5/17, I took the 25 mile trek by water to Loch Lomond Marina, got a guest slip and stayed the night on the boat to meet the BRP rep at 9 am on 5/18.
We met at the designated rendezvous at Arena Yachts. We proceeded to test run the boat with laptop hooked up. He kept making tweaks but to no avail. We hauled out, using Dan Arena’s trailer and he swapped out the injectors and reprogrammed them. Back in the water for more testing. Still no change. Back to my original injectors and more programming, back in the water, no change. Back out. Changed prop to 14x15. Yikes! Still made 4700 RPM at 13 knots. But no change in the problem zone…. I could have told him that. Several times I mentioned the EMM (computer.) The guy insisted that it would be extremely unlikely. Anyway, on the fifth haul-out and running out of options, he decided to put a new EMM in there. Back on the water. Problem still there but seemed a little better. More tweaks with laptop on the go. And suddenly, Viola!. He had me keep it at the problem RPM setting as he made programming changes and engine ran well. Changed RPMs within the problem range, and more tweaks. Maybe an hour later, the bugs were all gone and she runs smoothly through the entire RPM range. I have no idea if the new EMM was necessary or not. I assume it was as the tweaks didn’t work on the old one. But a new EMM alone wouldn’t have done it without the guy’s expertise and equipment. He was able to configure 3 or 4 different levels of adjustments (in synch) to find just the right settings, and save them. The mechanic had no way of doing this.
Well I must give some kudos to BRP for manning up. But most kudos go to Dan Arena as he monitored my whole situation and really made this happen. He certainly has some pull with BRP as they are now the OEM engine for Mac. As a customer on my own, I could have never had this guy come out. BTW, no charge for anything. As for the mechanic, I can see how he did in-fact follow protocol. Having gone through the entire process, I can also see how the average mechanic would have been stumped by this problem. It nearly stumped one of the top technical guys straight from the engine manufacturer. He really knew his stuff, and had quite the impressive truck full of parts and equipment, and one of those magic laptops and he knew how to tweak it. Imagine cruising along and a few keystrokes can rev up the engine 1000 RPM without touching the throttle! I was also very impressed with the guy’s attitude. He was not going to stop until my problem was fixed. Before the final step, he said that if it didn’t work, he would return in 2 days with more parts and work on it again. All this was done with my engine 2 ½ years out of warranty on good faith. Granted, I paid plenty to the mechanic already. I can’t really take any credit for making this happen. All I can say is, that it helps to have a good relationship with your Mac dealer, and one who follows through. Thanks Dan & Jeff.
By the way, all of you with an 08 Etec or newer. You will be glad to know that many improvements were made in the 08 model year. Many such problems or similar have been eliminated.

The problem lies when the engine switches between stratified mode and homogeneous mode. One is for lower RPM operation, the other is higher. EPA requires this. It is all electronically controlled, but can sometimes be a glitch. The 08+ models use different method to change between modes, and the software that controls it is also updated. In my case the engine would be struck in transition between the two modes. He told me that he saw a few similar cases, but mine was the most severe.

OK. That’s the story. I am once again a happy camper.
Fair winds,
Leon

Leon, Pleased to hear you have a resolution at last. Good on you for not giving up until the problem was fixed. Pity you had to go through all hull to get there though...
Regards,
David

Very interesting my original powerhead obviously had exactly the same problems and it obviously is a known problem, just a pity that they stalled for so long and cost me and you so much in time and money but worst of all lost oportunities which I cannot afford to do again, no wonder they weren't interested in testing my original motor further.
The mechanic in Darwin did mention that the 2010 model is very much improved, they obviously also have major problems first being that only authorised dealer workshops can diagnose and even these authorised people do not have access to the full diagnostic program which is not much help when stopped in a remote location even though this fault probably wouldnot cause the motor to stop at least in the short term.
Good job Leon fantastic that it is now working, perhaps it may pay to paste your post on the evinrude owners site?
Hope it continues as good as mine was two days ago fingers crossed.

delevi wrote:Several times I mentioned the EMM (computer.) The guy insisted that it would be extremely unlikely. Anyway, on the fifth haul-out and running out of options, he decided to put a new EMM in there. Back on the water. Problem still there but seemed a little better. More tweaks with laptop on the go. And suddenly, Viola!.

So let's review.

You replaced:
fuel injectors, fuel pump, oil pump+software, filters, throttle position sensor, crankshaft position sensor, spark plugs, new gaskets, new shutter valve, and various minor parts
with no success.

And when he replaced the EMM and tuned it, the motor worked perfectly within minutes. So it was NOT a mechanical problem at all.

I'm glad it's working now and they didn't charge you, but after all that wasted money on non-broken parts that's the least they can do in the shadow of undertrained mechanics. It's scary to think what you had to go through to fix this problem and replace a part that they didn't believe could fail.



--Russ

Hello,
That's the beauty of working with someone with lots of experience. In this case he has factory backing with all the tools, can change parts to eliminate them as possible causes and not have to buy them to find out (always non returnable for us commoners). Mechanics who are aggressive about learning and fixing these things will have a drawer full of "known good" parts they can swap out for testing purposes. Otherwise you have to have a "boat load" of technical info and experience, a position I found myself in working for Cadillac in the early 80's during the advent of computer tech in cars. At first the factory wants to protect their technical edge and will not train their mechanics adequately or give then the detailed info needed to solve complex issues like the one you had. Eventually they succumb due to the market pressure of unresolved problems, disgruntled customers and loss of market share. I'm sure this thread had an influence in the final outcome.

Be thankful, there aren't many guys around these days that will commit to solving a problem no matter what. Task oriented, not time oriented and will stay at it until it's done. Think outside the box. The factory and especially the rep are to be commended for acting in this very responsible manner.

Don T

Russ,

At the end of the day, you are right and wish it actually worked out that way. In reality, even the top dog from the factory followed a procedure where all mechanical components wer eliminated before exploring the EMM. My specific problem was a rare one. One part,the oil pump, needed replacement for one reason only. The new one comes with software to control the throttle position sensor through the EMM. This was essential in making the final repair. At the end of the day, the new EMM and oil pump with software and TPS would cost about as much as the repair I paid for. Certainly much added time and frustration. On the other hand, I practically have a brand new engine now with all the new parts. Pretty good for me with 620 hours in 5+ years.

Anyway, I'm glad it's over and the final result was a positive one.

Leon

Don
Theres a fair bit of this going on

At first the factory wants to protect their technical edge and will not train their mechanics adequately or give then the detailed info needed to solve complex issues like the one you had. Eventually they succumb due to the market pressure of unresolved problems, disgruntled customers and loss of market share. I'm sure this thread had an influence in the final outcome.

My problems were almost the same as Leons but due to me picking up the fault on the first day I put the motor in the water all parts and labour etc was done under warranty right up to four years and 400 hours but the problem was the motor except for one test run never ran right, everything that Leon says happened with his motor happened with mine including the runs on water hooked up to laptops etc.
When you have this you beaut computor operated simple 2 stroke that has diagnostic and history capacity wouldn't you think it was a simple matter to find out why it's missing/breaking down at a certain rpm range.
Sadly this is the way of the future and it's great while they are running but not when you have a problem 2,500k's from the nearest dealer or 5000 k's from someone like Leon finally got to check his motor, in my case in the end it was cheaper to just replace the powerhead than send a troubleshooter to Darwin but it would have been a helluva lot simpler and less expensive for all parties if they had addressed the problem when first notified for Leons and mine.

This will not be peculiar to BRP, it will be the case with all the high technology clean burning motors but what will set them apart is how they test them prior and stand by the customer with a faulty motor, BRP needs to lift their game and show people that they are, before they get to this stage.

When you have a dealer nearby with water testing facilities it's not so much of a problem if they take a while to get it right but depending on circumstances it can still be very costly in time and inconvenience but when they set it up in the shop and hope it will be ok and then send you off to test it on the water 3000 k's away and then bring it back when it doesn't work it gets very expensive and very inconvenient, we buy these things to work and be reasonably assured that you can rely on them, not have to curtail trips etc or limit them due to an unreliable motor.

We just had a thread running on a fishing site over here started by someone who had a good experience with BRP but it soon degenerated even with Huey from the etec owners site weighing in and as mentioned whenever an etec thread is started it goes for ages unlike any other makers as there just isn't the same lack of back up or denial.

Threads like this and others while they shouldn't be neccessarry are invaluable to help these manufacturers accept their responsibilities.
FTR my original powerhead was mechanically tested in Darwin and everything was perfect, as good as new, obviously it was an electronic or sensor fault and the only thing I can see that Leon had done that mine didn't was perhaps the oil punp and definitely the EMM but it had other parts replaced like a cracked oil tank.

Here's my old post:

Re: The Bomb exploded on my Motor (a bit long)
by 1st Sail » Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:11 pm

I spoke with two dealers today. Overall I think we are essentially screwed.
Dealer 1 (larger dealer in the area)- I related my own personal issue of intermitant ignition miss fire between 3-4K rpm. I informed him I that I understood there is a cross over with regard to fuel delivery etc. His reply was to just replace the plugs. I asked about indexing...Nah won't make any difference.

Dealer2 (small dealer) His comment was 'It is what it is". Further comments..."There is a cross over in fuel delivery between 3-4k rpm. The zone is approx 400-600 rpm where the software goes from a hetergenous mixing system to stratified charge based metering. With approx. 80 hrs on my engine he did not think the plugs were a factor. Plugs are indexed at the factory and are a must."

Where does that leave us mortals. I think we have a B1 here. Seems like I recall a show on the History channel about the B1. They described the shape as geometrically simplistic to the eye. But under the skin not an airplane that you could fly with conventional mechanical controls. Add complex software control systems and you have an incredible flying machine.

After reading the narrative I posted eariler I get the feeling we have a partial B1... simle, clean, efficient design, however like the B1 you need software to make it fly (run). Reading the process flow description it appears most of the critical functions relate to sensor control systems tied to software. If this engine type is deficient in fault code generation then we are toast. I think the complexity of the software and system controls exceed the understanding the those responsible for maintenance and diagnostics. If we have software driven controls systems that don't talk back then debugging may replacing parts until you get it.

Are there any process flow diagnostics data or information available to the dealers? In the case of my Etec 50 it does the same stupid process up to 6000 times a minute.

I would like to see a board survey regarding how many are experiencing ignition problems.

BINGO! At least my small dealer is up on his stuff. Too bad all the dealer's do not have access to the correct software. Perhaps a USB or WiFi port would be an excellent upgrade. Just hook it to the net and upload the bug fix. Now I wnat mine fixed too!

1st sail
I would be making as much noise as possible (shouldn't have to) If your dealer tries to charge you get straight onto BRP and go as far as it takes to get attention otherwise you will be left hung out to dry like others but maybe they are listening better now.
The dealers should have access to the diagnostics software but even that doesn't seem to be sufficient to do more than minor adjustments or readings on some sensors, personally I think Don T put his finger on it and this comment by Huey a moderator on the Etec owners site summed it up on our fishing site thread, from my POV

I do agree and if going into a remote area all clean tech engines can be more prone to problems and with the equipment to test and repair it will be a problem and yes the injectors E-TEC use are not like automotive injectors. In my opinion there is still alot to be said for the basic carby 2-Stroke in these areas, because they are very easy to fix and if you get a bad dose of fuel no injectors, electic fuel pumps, VSR etc to block and you can easily clean a carby by the side of the river.

I think if I was buying a motor today I would be looking at something closer to a basic 2 stroke and even buying low hr's S/H if not available new for my particular use and just carry extra fuel which really is a pain.

For others closer to dealers I do believe Etec are possibly as good as any providing you have a good dealer and are prepared to be aggressive if something goes wrong.

It wasn't as simple as uploading software. It was configuring a number of different settings. The combination of settings had to be just right for each throttle position. Then the throttle position would change and a new set of settings had to be inputed. It took him a good part of the day to figure it out just right. Once he got it, the other throttle positions went very quickly. Basically, the mechanics have to be IT guys to work on these engines. How many of those guys are out there? Now if there were no EPA regulations, he could have fixed the problem in a few minutes. I realize there is a need for enignes to be as clean as possible. Unfortunately, this makes the electronics necessary, and the cycle begins. BTW, I would guess there is only a handful of people qualified to have dealt with this problem. I was fortunate to get one of them to work on my engine. Even so, if we're talking $100/hour plus parts, I would be in for a good $2K. And this guy is probably faster with diagnoses than most, plus we had open water right there and Jeff from Arena Yachts standing by with truck and trailer to haul us out and launch (5-6 times.) Under different circumstances, this could have easily been a multi-day job with dozens of hours racked up. I suppose technology doesn't always make everything better.

Leon

Something I want to add as a word of advice to any potential new Mac buyers. This bad situation was rectified with the help of my dealer. With Evinrude being the OEM engine for MacGregor, I think now more than ever, it is very important to buy from a solid, reputable dealer. Preferably one with some clout.

Leon

It wasn't as simple as uploading software. It was configuring a number of different settings. The combination of settings had to be just right for each throttle position. Then the throttle position would change and a new set of settings had to be inputed. It took him a good part of the day to figure it out just right. Once he got it, the other throttle positions went very quickly. Basically, the mechanics have to be IT guys to work on these engines.

I may be wrong but I don't think the average authorised mechanic/dealer can alter things like that, they can play with settings and get it running on the laptop but they need a special access code again to permanently alter them on the emm.

Now if there were no EPA regulations

Maybe this is why four strokes are not as prone to the technical heebie jeebies as they are inherently cleaner running, just as an example the injectors on the Etec is a mini computor itself and needs to be tuned.

One thing I have noticed is that if you look at any thread on Tohatsu TLDI motors there is hardly a bad word about them I thought they were comparable technology but maybe not