Mainsail raising issues

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seahouse
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Re: Mainsail raising issues

Post by seahouse »

BOAT - Right - the plastic part goes toward the boom, the metal part toward the mast - it's a straight part swap from the factory part, and the bolts and nuts that are re-used fit directly into the holes. The socket is just a counter-bored hole where the cap screw goes. It screws into threads in the metal part, leaving clearance and play between the two parts when bottomed out so they can rotate freely around one another. That could be a shoulder bolt too (would be better, actually), if one is available in the right size.

You will notice that in the picture above the sail is wound loosely. This is partly because the battens are not installed in the sail at right angles to the luff. If the battens were removed, or the batten pockets made perpendicular to the luff, the roll would be nice and tight. Albeit at some slight loss of sail performance (a travesty! :o ). My sail cover is roomy in any case, so it doesn't make any difference to me. It might even be a benefit by allowing a sail that was put away in the rain to dry out quicker (sail covers usually have an open seam along the bottom for free air movement).

Mastreb - Thanks for the Spinlock endorsement. Hard to tell how well those things work without knowing someone who has used them in our (Mac M) situation.

I found the drawing for the part at work today, so now I don't need access to my boat to measure to make another one. Since I made the original from mild steel on hand, I'll have to get some stainless, and a stainless screw, to make the part. I'm presently making another product specifically to fit in a thing called a USPS small flat rate box, this will also fit it, so I can easily run it across the border and the shipping cost would be low, known, and fixed. If you haven't found an alternative, and still want the part made, PM me and I'll take care of it that way to conform to forum rules. Or anyone else want one? :?:

There is another simple part that I have in mind but not proved out yet that goes in the mast/boom area that should further ease luff handling, if there are difficulties that still remain. But it might not be necessary so I will keep that under my hat for now until I get to the boat and have a chance to debug it, if needed, in the spring. (Not done yet! 8) )

-B. :wink:
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BOAT
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Re: Mainsail raising issues

Post by BOAT »

You know guys, with the Captain Seahouse boom knuckle and the mastrep Skippers sail spinner we just might have a furling rig for a bolted main. :!:
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Crikey
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Re: Mainsail raising issues

Post by Crikey »

Hey B. (Seahouse)! It just dawned on me that your mod is a furling system and not one for reefing. Otherwise you would have to be running the main control tackle, repositioned, on the very end of the boom.
Which led me to thinking about why that would be a bad idea. Honestly, on a boat (M) like ours I don't think that would be a significant change. So, why couldn't the sail be rolled down hard, provided there was adequate guidance ,under way, to the first or second reef points (before the existing battens)? I'm thinking a 12v solution again, so I'll free you from further tedium dealing with that - but perhaps a ratchet?
If the battens were re-angled or modified (think additional full length type), the sail could be reefed to unity.
I was just about to also order a Boomkicker before you came out with this, so I'm hoping Mastreb can come up with a fix with his unit as they avoid hassling with the topping lift. Losing the vang could be contentious when running reefed, also. But how big a deal is it to rig some piece of extra line, in order to offset most of that disadvantage?

Nice idea Bri!
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Re: Mainsail raising issues

Post by mastreb »

Gosh, I wish I'd thought to post about the sail feeder. It works great, slides right into the slot, and takes all of about one minute to install. It takes all the pain out of using a boltrope and allows me to get the main up a lot faster. If you use a boltrope, you really ought to order one immediately.

Matt
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Re: Mainsail raising issues

Post by mastreb »

The part is with the boat in storage, but I found these pix which I will share - feel free to duplicate, simplify, or improve it for yourself.
Alas, I have neither the tools nor the skills to improve upon this myself. If anyone would like to make me one, I'd pay $200 for it.
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seahouse
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Re: Mainsail raising issues

Post by seahouse »

Yeah Crikey – I didn't intend, in that simple embodiment, for it to be for reefing. I bought a quick-release fitting at the chandlery at Mad Men Ontario Meet to make the removal of the vang and traveler quicker, because that action needs to be faster than the factory setup, for sure.

A cordless drill geared WAY down on the end of the boom, as you suggest, should work well. I found that, as it is now, with a crank you need a second short handle (say, 8” or so) to hold onto to steady it from the back and forth motion of your hand on the crank, and the drill might eliminate that need. (So Deb would hold the handle in her left hand, and crank with her right hand, to clarify the picture).

I have envisioned that a “boomkicker” (let's call it that loosely for now) scenario could be made a functioning component of this system with support from below, and a series of rollers on a “U” that would cradle the sail roll and boom from underneath.

If formed correctly it would capture the boom and prevent it from rising up, like a vang, and therefor still allow sail shape control. An extruded round boom profile would be better suited than the stock teardrop profile, but a round section (say an ABS pipe section for example) could easily be retro-fitted to the outside of the boom in the area where this captures it.

Mastreb - thank you, that's a very generous offer. I'll make one up, send it out for you to try, and then we can settle. On an amount somewhat less than $200, though. 8)

-B. :wink:
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Re: Mainsail raising issues

Post by Newell »

Interesting and lengthy thread though I'm not a M owner I comment since Mainsail rasing, lowering, and stowing are universal issues. My X was ordered without slugs and I have used both systems for many years. I have also developed several variations of gooseneck connections to allow me to roll the main onto the boom. The latest version allows the front fitting that connects to the gooseneck bolt to swivel around a bolt fitted through the front endcap. Swiveling is checked by a push-pin installed in the bottom hole. Just trialed this system at Havasu and the 1/4" swiveling bolt was slightly bent making the rolling operation harder than it needed to be. Thinking of up-sizing the bolt. My version of a crank was a rod placed through the boom when rolling and stowed down the CB lifting tunnel when not used. Found it about as easy to turn the boom by hand without the crank by moving to the aft end of the boom.

I have always rolled the main over both the vang and mainsheet which are wrapped and tied to the boom before the rollinng process. Makes for better storage of the main than folding, increases the life of the mainsail, and all of the componets for hoisting the main and getting underway are at hand when the boom is brought on deck.

I have read all the opinions and quotes of the experts on the efficiency of bolt rope over slugs and conclude there is no issue. Yes, there is a gap with slugs and air could leak and does. However, consider if your sail is 1/2" wider (or more) from top to bottom because of slugs, then you have increased presentation to the oncoming wind by (1/2" times the length of the luff) amount of more sail to bend the wind. Essentially you have upsized your sail and the net effect may even be a plus. Anyway as a backyard Mac racer I find my rig work well enough. :)
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Re: Mainsail raising issues

Post by BOAT »

The factory does not recomend slugs if you race.
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Newell
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Re: Mainsail raising issues

Post by Newell »

BOAT wrote:The factory does not recomend slugs if you race.
The 'factory' never has seemed interested in racing, other than Roger saying when 2 boats are going in the same direction it is a race. I wonder what the 65 and 70 footers used for the Main as to bolt rope or slugs?

I found this comment searching the net:
The luff of the main is already in very distured air because it is behind the mast. The first 6 inches or so never see enough clean air to contribute any lift at all. I have sailed on many boats that are fastest up wind witha a fairly significant separation bubble on the main when everything is trimmed tight.

This from a Mr. Jeff Roy on S2 forum discussing the bolt rope vs slug issue. Is there any controlled studies to support either claims or is it just armchair observation and personal preference?

Anyway I will never use plastic slugs again they can be a problem.
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Re: Mainsail raising issues

Post by BOAT »

I do not have a degree in boat design or all that other stuff. Peter Barret and Roger MacGregor do. If they say that slugs are not recommended for racing then that is what it is. Who am I to dispute them? It's not my opinion I am giving and I do not have any religious doctrines either way. It's just the recomendations from the people that build the small boats. You would need to take it up with them - I just do not have the education to dispute them.
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dlandersson
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Re: Mainsail raising issues

Post by dlandersson »

Roger M has a degree in "Boat Design". I knew he had an MBA. I did not know he had a degree in "Boat Design". :wink:
BOAT wrote:I do not have a degree in boat design or all that other stuff. Peter Barret and Roger MacGregor do. If they say that slugs are not recommended for racing then that is what it is. Who am I to dispute them? It's not my opinion I am giving and I do not have any religious doctrines either way. It's just the recomendations from the people that build the small boats. You would need to take it up with them - I just do not have the education to dispute them.
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Crikey
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Re: Mainsail raising issues

Post by Crikey »

Unless it's positioned like a fowler flap, a gap in the airfoil, near the leading edge, is only going to introduce turbulence: hence the 'racing' appellation. However, degree or no degree, we diverge from the issue of ease of movement (for reefing or raising).
:o
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Re: Mainsail raising issues

Post by mastreb »

seahouse wrote:
Mastreb - thank you, that's a very generous offer. I'll make one up, send it out for you to try, and then we can settle. On an amount somewhat less than $200, though. 8)

-B. :wink:
Thanks man! Can't wait! Also, I've got an Inmon roller reefer for sale if anyone wants :-)

I don't think the boom kicker is going to be an issue at all. The component that connects it to the boom is a slide-plate. You merely have to lift the boom to about 45 degrees and the boomkicker falls right off, connected at the mast foot. It's actually easier to "disconnect" than the vang.

Matt
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seahouse
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Re: Mainsail raising issues

Post by seahouse »

Newell- Parallel paths we have here. :D

I went with a 3/8” bolt because that is the largest that would conveniently fit (the head diameter) in the little space allowed. I next expect to use a 5/16”, or even a 3/8” stainless shoulder bolt (coloquially AKA a “stripper bolt”) if the head will fit, because the screw can be firmly tightened against the shoulder, and it's still nice and strong.

Of course, in the threaded area a 1/4” screw only has a cross-section of about 3/16”, so I think upgrading that is a good plan if you have room. Going with stainless means a weaker bolt than alloy steel would be too. The side loading at that point of the boom is limited by the righting moment of the boat, but that doesn't consider sudden gust loads, or any bending forces during handling.

Re: the lock pin - even if the boom were to rotate slightly under sail, (without the vang to right it) I can't see that it would inhibit, and might even slightly enhance, the sail shape and aerodynamics. Did you notice much rotation without the pin, and any negative effect from it? Maybe I'm just not looking closely enough.

I found that just turning the whole thing by hand, without a crank, is pretty easy too; and also keeps it simple- nothing to drop overboard. 8)

Mastreb – Should be a couple of weeks or so, will let you know when I ship. Does that roller reefer require a custom-modified sail, smaller than the factory one, IIRC?

-B. :wink:
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Re: Mainsail raising issues

Post by apauwels »

Dear all,

First of all, thank you very much for the overwhelming replies and suggestions.

I lowered the mast over the weekend and fixed the problems, but not really to my satisfactory...

1. There was debris of metal in the groove, half way up the mast. this caused the slugs to get stuck at that point. (To answer a previous question: I ordered the sail with slugs) Removed the debris with a screwdriver and a cloth, which seemed to work.
2. I lubricated with soap, which improved the sliding. This week I will be in Germany and will buy proper lubcrication (no sailshops in Dubai ;) ) Any suggestions on which lubricant to use for the slugs?
3. I originally lead the halyard to the cockpit. When I pull straight at he mast while standing on Deck with having solved the debris and lubrication, the main goes fairly smooth up and down. However, I'd like to be able to operate the main from behind the wheel. All lines are lead to the aft so I can single handed sail the boat.

Did any of you lead the halyard to the cockpit and, of you did, what did you use/ how did you do it?

And by the way, white boats are sexy indeed ;). Thanks to all of you I was able to have a good sailing over the weekend. 10 knots of wind and 28 degrees celcius, was the perfect mix ;)

Best and warm regards,
Ahmed
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