Well, that escalated really rapidly...

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dlandersson
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Re: Well, that escalated really rapidly...

Post by dlandersson »

Dude,

1) you are not an admiral. :P

2) slip length availability goes down with length increases.
BOAT wrote: Well, ya, I get that but once your off a trailer and into a slip anyways what's the point?? Why not just go longer for more interior space? What's the advantage to go wider?? I still don't get it. If you want nine more staterooms just add 60 more feet to the LENGTH, NOT to the WIDTH!?!? It just seems common sense to me, but I am not a big boat owner so I am probably not a good source of reason on this subject.
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BOAT
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Re: Well, that escalated really rapidly...

Post by BOAT »

Yes, you are right on both - I guess it's a good thing I am not a big boat owner. They sure are nice -
I'm not the skipper that my Dad and his friends were either, so that's another good reason for me to not own a big boat. :(
little 'boat' is probably just about all the boat I should ever pilot - in my day I was in high demand - the guys used to argue over who would get me on their crew - I was really good back then. Many people said they won races because of me, but being one of the crew is not the same as being the skipper so most of my opinions are missing the viewpoint of the captain and the responsibilities that come with that - including the choice of length and width.

I could be and am often: 'all wet'. :wink:
:macm:

Whatever your opinion may be of Roger as a skipper I think he has proven himself in regards to knowing what is important on a boat. I'm from the old school that says boats have a purpose and everything about the boat should serve that purpose - that may not make a boat look like your living room, and to me that's a good thing. I like smooth waterproof surfaces throughout and round corners and lightweight materials that don't cut me up in the rough sea. I like light bright color that can take people throwing up and clean well with no dark ugly wood covered in beer and pizza stains.

I know this post has gone too long and no one really nedds to read it but in light of the original subject about any of us moving up to a big boat I think it's important to remember the basics and not get trapped by all the furnishings and branding that provide nothing but status and zero performance. I think Rogers own words are the best and i will put them here as he sums up the rational better than I can:

ROGER MACGREGOR:

ADVANTAGES OF A LONG, NARROW HULL: Speed, of course, is the big one. A long slender hull offers a long waterline, and waterline length is the major factor in determining how fast a boat will be. You can see it in the lack of wake when the boat is going near or beyond hull speed. Since a slender hull pushes less water aside in the form of waves, it is not as limited by a defined hull speed. The theoretical hull speed on this yacht is 10.7 knots, but it will easily slide thru this barrier and go much faster.
If you wish to see the speed advantage of a narrow hull, compare a long slender rowing shell with that of a plump dinghy of equal weight. Given the same amount of effort, the difference in speed is astounding.
The easily driven, narrow hull requires a very small sailplan to go very fast. This makes the boat easier to sail. The boat has a lot of sail for its weight and size, and sails best when deeply reefed in heavy winds.
There is also a major safety advantage. Under really extreme circumstances, if a wide yacht gets upside down it may stay there for quite a while, until it gets set upright by a wave, or floods and sinks. Over the past few years, the rating authorities have been doing a lot of soul searching about the wide boats that the handicapping rules have tended to create. Many can no longer be considered self righting. A narrow yacht with deep ballast, like ANTHEM, will recover from a severe roll a lot more rapidly. It is our opinion that, regardless of the dictates of the handicapping system, an oceangoing yacht should be self righting. The angle from which the 65's and Anthem will right itself exceeds that of most other production sailboats.
A long, slender yacht such as this is easy to keep on course, unlike many of the IOR based racing and cruising boats that are difficult to steer, particularly downwind in large seas. The balanced rudder is a long way aft, and exerts enormous steering power with minimum loads for the helmsman. The yacht can be turned in virtually its own length.
Length provides an extremely stable, comfortable motion at sea, with far less pitching (or hobby horsing) than the typical cruising yacht. The hull knifes through waves with little slamming. When sailing hard into the wind, most of the spray is generated at the bow. With the rear cockpit location, it is rare to have spray get as far aft as the cockpit. Broad beamed boats shoulder a lot of water aside, and it ends up being blown over the boat. The foredeck is no place to be in heavy weather on any boat, but the aft end is nicely isolated.
A wide cabin is no doubt attractive at a boat show or at a dock, but when sailing at any angle of heel, it becomes a real challenge. Picture a boat with a 20 foot beam, and thus a 20' wide main salon. When this is heeled 10 to 20 degrees, it is a long, uphill climb when going to the windward side, or worse, a long downhill roll to the leeward side. In the center, there is little to provide support. A narrower cabin gives a lot more safety and security at sea. Another advantage of ANTHEM'S hull shape is that the usable width extends for much of the boat's long length. On a plump, shorter boat, the wide beam may only extend for a few feet before it tapers off to bow and stern.
Privacy is also a factor. The staterooms are a long way apart, separated by the lounging and working areas of the boat, and the occupants can be assured of far more privacy than in a shorter boat. The rear sleeping area is really remote, and ideal for the charter crew or noisy kids. This area is separated from the main living area by a soundproofed watertight bulkhead.
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mrron_tx
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Re: Well, that escalated really rapidly...

Post by mrron_tx »

Point well made Boat . Ron.
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Russ
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Re: Well, that escalated really rapidly...

Post by Russ »

Roger's 65/70 was built for speed and ocean racing. If that's your game, then he's spot on, that's the boat for you. It was fast and won races and I'm sure his new modern version of it will as well. Those ocean racers are not built for a week cruising with the family to Catalina. They were purely functional and that was speed.
I agree with Roger that wide boats don't make good ocean crossing cruisers. He's also correct in the righting ability of narrower boats with deep heavy keels. In a capsize, your spars would likely snap off and the boat would pop back up. BOAT is 100% correct in assuming you will encounter a storm while ocean crossing. I'm also old school and would expect 30' waves and following seas, etc. Your boat and skipper need to be prepared for that. It's no fun to spend hours battling stuff like that, especially in pitch darkness.
I'm too old for that game. If I were younger and single, I might enjoy the thrill of beating the sea and sailing around the world. But with my family on board or the thought of making the admiral a widow makes me live a bit more conservatively.

Sorry to disagree with BOAT, but that Mac 70 is the butt ugliest boat I've ever seen. Try and sell your admiral on dropping that much coin on something that looks like Elvis' bedroom.
And where is the wheel in that "helm seat"? It looks like a bench seat in a diner. On a port tack you are sliding out onto the floor.
Image

Our little Macs fit an excellent niche. Most of us own them for the flexibility and space they provide while allowing to be towed with almost any vehicle. When going larger, there are other factors. Speed vs. comfort. My admiral prefers comfort.

--Russ
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mastreb
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Re: Well, that escalated really rapidly...

Post by mastreb »

dlandersson wrote: 2) slip length availability goes down with length increases.
And cost. The style in sailboats these days is to maximize space and minimize slip costs, because its slip fees that cause keelboats to be expensive and to depreciate.

The 38' is just as large in terms of interior space as a 42', but it's got a plumb bow and a fold-down transom specifically to make it 4' less expensive every month. At $15/ft., that's $15,000 over the ownership lifetime of a boat.

You won't find a better sailboat style than the MacGregor '70 for ocean crossing, no two ways about it. It's got tons (literally) of port and starboard water ballast as well, and you can pump in and out of either or both so you can level the boat once you're on a long stable tack.

Beamy is not good for comfort in big waves and storms, but in my experience, you spend a lot more time aboard than you spend in storms.

Figure that a MacGregor 70 will cost over $100,000 >more< to slip for 20 years than the new boat here in San Diego.

As beamy as the new boat is, it's very comfortable up on a heel. The center table in the salon makes it easy to handhold and move through the cabin without knocking around, and the mast post is directly beside the galley, so you can lean against it while cooking.

As for its storm handling, we'll just have to see. Could take years to get a decent storm out here.
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Russ
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Re: Well, that escalated really rapidly...

Post by Russ »

mastreb wrote:You won't find a better sailboat style than the MacGregor '70 for ocean crossing, no two ways about it. It's got tons (literally) of port and starboard water ballast as well, and you can pump in and out of either or both so you can level the boat once you're on a long stable tack.
Where did you see this? I haven't been able to find any mention of water ballast on the 65/70 class boats.
Unless you mean Roger's NEW 70 being built. Mike Inmon describes the water ballast.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap8u56Q_Uh4

The 65/70 was a fast boat. That high aspect ratio and skinny hull made her a great racing boat. His new 70 will certainly be much faster.

I agree with the dock space comments. Must be hard to even find a vacant slip that can fit that boat. Turn around in the marina?
The racing mentality and culture is not for me. I much prefer a shorter, more comfortable boat. For that much money, my choice would be a comfy cat with lots of room and things like generators and refrigeration. Those Caribbean cat charters keep calling me.
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Re: Well, that escalated really rapidly...

Post by BOAT »

Yes Russ, that’s the boat I saw.

I saw the water tanks and the submarine hatches on the 70 in the factory – but I was not told if the water tanks were on every boat, or only Rogers boat. I think there is an option for solid ballast, part water and part solid, and then the pump able ballast. It’s all based on what you want to use the boat for. Mike did tell me that the submarine hatches on the hull are NOT part of the production boat - those were only for Roger. (Probably another option).

There is no wheel on the helm station – it uses a little knob on the Ray Marine Auto Pilot. You would need to read the stuff that Roger wrote on the interior to get that – it’s not showing in the picture. The new boat is not 70’s tech anymore like in the pictures.

The 65 has logged more heavy weather storm sailing than pretty much any other sailboat in the world. There are 100 of them out there and every skipper private and charter says it’s the most comfortable heavy seas boat they have ever sailed. (Many of them are cat drivers).

As for the looks, I like the exterior very much, I like the MAC M too – I still like raccoon stripes. As for the interior I would not change a thing except the colors maybe and the carpet but even that I can tell was selected for bare feet so I even understand that choice. The red might look dated but it provides good spatial orientation in heavy seas and hides dirt, beer, food and puke. I can tell that every detail was selected for the heavy sea captain chartering all kinds of people aboard – the true test of boats usefulness over the long haul. The 70 I saw was not furnished but the liners and molds looked similar. I doubt the colors will be the 70’s style. It looked like the extra 5 feet was in the galley/inside-helm area.

I still can’t see any common sense or any added value to have a wide boat out in the middle of the ocean. In my book it just does not add up to enough value if all it does is “make the admiral happy” That’s a dumb way to choose a boat especially if the only time it’s going to make the “admiral happy” is when it’s in flat level water. I dunno, that’s just me I guess.

I do totally understand the slip fee argument – that is the ONLY argument that makes sense to me.

Don’t discount the added comfort of SPEED! The 65 did 25 knots EASY and Roger said the 70 will be FASTER! Quite a difference from that earlier video I posted of those guys in a CAT 29 slogging it out in 40MPH winds going only 6.2 knots!! What a crappy way to battle the weather! Getting there in half the time is always more comfortable than taking too long – especially in bad weather. As for the cats: The Caribbean cat charter drivers have written quite a lot about the 65 – you would be very surprised by their comments. You can read some of them in Rogers’s notes.

I guess I’m just stuck on the old fashioned schooner look of the 1800’s – it was such a proven configuration that still works so well to this day – LONG, low, and lean.

You can see the chopped up molds that created the MAC X boats at the end of the video too – that’s always a heart wrenching thing to look at.
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Russ
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Re: Well, that escalated really rapidly...

Post by Russ »

BOAT wrote:Don’t discount the added comfort of SPEED! The 65 did 25 knots EASY and Roger said the 70 will be FASTER! Quite a difference from that earlier video I posted of those guys in a CAT 29 slogging it out in 40MPH winds going only 6.2 knots!! What a crappy way to battle the weather! Getting there in half the time is always more comfortable than taking too long – especially in bad weather. As for the cats: The Caribbean cat charter drivers have written quite a lot about the 65 – you would be very surprised by their comments. You can read some of them in Rogers’s notes.

I guess I’m just stuck on the old fashioned schooner look of the 1800’s – it was such a proven configuration that still works so well to this day – LONG, low, and lean.

You can see the chopped up molds that created the MAC X boats at the end of the video too – that’s always a heart wrenching thing to look at.
According to MagGregor Yachts, a 65 “averaged over 10.5 knots for 1150 miles, in generally upwind conditions, and hit top speeds of over 25 knots” in the Los Angeles to Puerto Vallarta race.

Roger also claims in the marketing brochure that my M will motor at 25 knots. So I take these numbers with a bit of salt. The hull speed of the 70 is about 11 knots. You can push over that for brief periods of time, but physics is physics and you really can't go faster in a displacement hull for any duration. The key to winning races is to maintain that 11 knots with little wind. It was probably the fastest production boat ever built. The new 70 will surely do that in normal seas. Hit it with 30 foot waves in a storm and all bets are off. The Mac 65/70 was praised for her speed, but criticized for too much flex.
The Mac 65 was also the most affordable racer ever built. For less than $150k you could win Transpac races. But I've never heard of this boat as being described as a cruiser and stiff. It's lightweight and built for speed with no frills. Out of 100 built, there are a lot for sale in listings. I think this boat is dated. Roger certainly will update it with his new version.

If you have the need for speed, I'd buy one of these new Mac 70s. The mast cost $200k alone, so your probably looking at a $1m-$2.5m boat so you can win that trophy.

You can still pick up a Mac 65 for under $100k. If I were going to drop $250k on a boat, I'd buy one like Matt's Beneteau. Actually, I'd probably buy a Hunter 40. The Oceanis does have a more modern, minimalist and sleek European look to it and probably sails better.
I still prefer the more classic lines of the Hunter although I'm not keen on the hard top bimini. Since I'm no speed demon, comfort is what I seek and the Hunter has two heads and a more finished cabin. The Oceanis does look like it's much more fun to sail.

Actually, one of my favorite "big" boats was the Hunter 42 Passage. A friend had one and it sure was nice. Matt would appreciate the 70 gal diesel tank. It had a 8kw generator and all the nice things below like A/C, electric heads, even a bathtub. Easy sell to the admiral. You can pick a used one up for around $100k. If I could only get one on a trailer......

--Russ
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Re: Well, that escalated really rapidly...

Post by BOAT »

THE NEW MAC 70 IS $250K
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Russ
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Re: Well, that escalated really rapidly...

Post by Russ »

BOAT wrote:THE NEW MAC 70 IS $250K
What is your source for this?

Carbon fiber hull is $$$
Carbon fiber mast $$$
Lead keel $$$
High tech sails (You can't put those Doyle sail on it) $$$

It will be fast though.

Back in 2010 Mike Inmon said, " The new carbon masts will cost more than than the original boat. "
http://www.macgregorsailors.com/forum/v ... 6&p=183800&

The original Mac cost $150k-$200k as a glass boat, aluminum mast in 1992 dollars.

The new Mac 70 (which has been in design for over 4 years now) will not likely be a production boat. Has one even floated yet? I see it as a fun hobby for Roger to build super fast, elite racing boats for millionaires who want to win cups.

Sailing speed is not my thing or I wouldn't own a 26M.
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Russ
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Re: Well, that escalated really rapidly...

Post by Russ »

BOAT wrote:You can see the chopped up molds that created the MAC X boats at the end of the video too – that’s always a heart wrenching thing to look at.
That was truly sad. Just cut up like firewood. Surely someone would take those molds off their hands for nostalgia purposes. Maybe build a cool carbon fiber epoxy 26X for fun.

I guess the 26M molds are in Florida now.
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Re: Well, that escalated really rapidly...

Post by BOAT »

http://www.macgregor26.com/macgregor70/home/home.html


[FrontPage Save Results Component]



MACGREGOR 70', ANTHEM

Our MacGregor 70 ketch rigged ANTHEM, is now for sale for $250,000.

I lifted it right off Rogers website.

The hull is not carbon fiber - it's epoxy. Only the spars are carbon.

The boat is not "all about speed" but really, faster is always better in my book. The boat is just superior as a BOAT, it may be inferior as a hotel room or a condominium, but as a SHIP/BOAT it is superior.

Yes Russ, I almost cried when I saw that X mold cut in pieces :cry: :cry: Th X boat was THE boat that made me even consider coming back to the sea - it it was not for that boat I probably would have never gotten back into sailing at all.

It's really sad to see that.
Last edited by BOAT on Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Russ
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Re: Well, that escalated really rapidly...

Post by Russ »

BOAT wrote:http://www.macgregor26.com/macgregor70/home/home.html


[FrontPage Save Results Component]



MACGREGOR 70', ANTHEM

Our MacGregor 70 ketch rigged ANTHEM, is now for sale for $250,000.

I lifted it right off Rogers website.

The hull is not carbon fiber - it's epoxy. Only the spars are carbon.
Oh, that's Roger's OLD boat Anthem. He doesn't update that website very often. Shows the boat is still for sale.

Back in April of 2010, Mike wrote in response to Anthem for sale, "I already sold Roger's 70. It will go up north in June. The new one is under construction. "

The NEW 70 which is the new carbon everything boat will be spendy. My estimate will be $1m-2.5m if it's full of all those high tech wizardry and components. Those Transpac cups aint cheap.
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Re: Well, that escalated really rapidly...

Post by BOAT »

Could be - I really don't know what a 70 foot boat costs - I have absolutely no frame of reference to even go by - we would need to talk to the other guys here on the site - I know a lot of them are owners of big companies and have RESOURCES like I would never have - so I can't really address the cost issue - I'm just going by what I have sailed myself as a crewman on various boats. The ones I was on that were proven in real seas and had a real captain to go with it were really not the most luxurious or the nicest interiors, in fact i saw a lot of furniture and "silly stuff" that my brother used to call "flotsam and jetsam" because it was the first stuff he threw overboard (like lame pillows on the settee's that would roll across the floor in a hard heel and trip people trying to get to the head) and those lame pullout galley drawers with the "easy glide soft close feature" that got my brother on his Hunter so mad trying to get them to stay closed in a swell that he yanked one out and threw it overboard after he rammed his hip into it for the last time.

Captain Chris who piloted an 1812 Baltimore Clipper that I got to sail on a couple of times used to call all that stuff: "scrapings" and he was quick to point to the "scrapings" on other boats that passed by.

I guess I have been jaded by all the stuff my head was been filled with as a kid listening to these various skippers I have sailed with over the years. I never thought much about luxury and sailing in the same context together - I always thought luxury was the concern of the powerboat captain - (well back then, that's what I was told).

Again, I'm coming from the point of view of the crew, I have never been the owner of a big ship.
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Re: Well, that escalated really rapidly...

Post by Russ »

BOAT wrote: I never thought much about luxury and sailing in the same context together
The Mac 65 was FAST and the 70 will be ever FASTER. Not a cruiser and not a luxury boat. It is for millionaires what the 26 is for middle class folks. An affordable way to win in the Billionaires club of yacht racing.

Now if you want a nice 65 boat, try out the Swan. Also check out a professional boat builder's site.
http://www.nautorswan.com/en/swan-line/ ... swan-66-fd

It may not be as fast as the Mac 70, but it sure is pretty. Modern boat with a cabin that doesn't look like Elvis' bedroom. Hopefully nobody will puke on the sofa. It will cost you about $2.5mil but if you are in the market, it's worth it.
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