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I know the answer to this!!!! I think!

Will be raising my mast this weekend and have forgotten a detail. I have a few complicated maneuvers to make while rigging due to mods made over the years (26x) and would prefer to raise the mast . . .

• without the backstay attatched at stern.
• without the upper and lower shrouds attached
• and only the mast raising babystays.

Can the mast fall forward??
My wife and my truck thank you for your input.
so do i


[mod]ModsEdit: to clarify title & questions ~fc[/mod]

can the mast fall forward??

My answer NO..........

It will most likely have fallen sideways and wiped out the Esclade or the Bayliner it is pulling before it reaches your truck, I doubt if the short lines from the mast raiser are adiquate for side support. I would definately attach the stays. That much arm (weight over that much distance) is hazzardous and I would want as much safety attached as possible

The short baby stays are all that's required to hold the mast from falling sideways when raising it. The main shrouds are actually slack until the mast is fully raised, so won't hold it anyway.

The mast can't fall forwards because of the base plate. The hinge bolt is at the back, and the forward movement is limited when the mast base is hard down on the deck plate. This is when the mast is about vertical, it can't even lean forward enough for the weight to overcome the fixing and bend the base plate, for example.

I'd say you're quite safe (but "caveat emptor" applies )

Cheers, Rick

cuisto wrote:and would prefer to raise the mast without the backstay attatched at stern. without the upper and lower shrouds attached and only the mast raising side stays, can the mast fall forward??

Just out of morbid curiosity why are you attaching the shrouds after the mast is up?

trouts..

at the end of last season we used the boat mastless for a bit. now it needs to be rigged from the start and some of the mods i've done just give the shrouds a few more things to catch on as she goes up...
the back stay is the big pain though..it always wants to snag something.

cuisto,
The backstay is a non-issue. No problem with leaving it loose during the lift.
And, your mast will be stable and sorta' safe by raising it with only the forestay and the babystays ... to a point. As Rick mentioned above, the mast will want to rest solidly on its maststep (tabernacle??). However, this should be a one-time deal, not a regular process. Babystays are rarely taut enough to fully stabilize the mast. As Tangent wrote above, the slightest wind-on-beam will want to push your mast off to one side of the boat. I just hope your babystays are "close to" fully taut. The problem is, you can't really determine how taut they'll be with the mast down.

Raising the mast 'sans shrouds' would become an ordeal (each time) as a regular procedure. But the real reason is ... it's not really a safe or logical process to "shroud" the mast after it is fully erect. In fact, it's virtually impossible to do so safely. Here's why.

The "conflict" among the forestay and the four shrouds provides the triangulating force to stabilize the mast. The contradictory "tension" among three points, foretang and chainplates, represents a physical "tripod" that safely "stands" the mast. It won't be possible to attach the four shrouds without tipping the mast aftwards by 10 to 15 degrees, since the shrouds should be going into serious tension (300+ lbs.) during the lift from ~75 degrees to 88 degrees-erect.

I cannot imagine any combination of mods that would require your approach. But then, I'm not lookin' at it~!
It won't hit your truck, but it easily could fall to either side. Best of luck~!

I guess it is the School of Hard Knocks for some people, they got to learn it the hard costly way.
What you are going to attempt is downright dangerous, better have an abundance of insurance, you are going to need it. Do not count on that mast base plate with 30' of leverage torquing on it, guaranteed to twist. The dealers' rigger took my baby stays off without telling me and stowed them below under my boom & mainsail. When I got home I proceeded to raise the mast as always thinking my babystays were right where I left them, but much to my amazement they were not there, as I discovered once the mast was raised above the crutch. The mast swung out to port and twisted that base plate plenty good. I looked at the damage after brining it back down and could not believe a piece of reinforced stainless steel could be bent like that, but the proof was before my eyes. (the dealer replaced it free)
Oh, and this was with an X mast raising system that uses the jib halyard and winch. I now have the new improved M system and love it but for the first few years I had the old system and twisted the SS atachements at the base of the gin pole where it atttaches to the base plate too. Anything will twist and bend with that much leverage. But don't listen to the warnings just go ahead and attend the School of Hard Knocks.

I raised the X mast without the backstay attached, since we had an adjustable one. But I'd NEVER think of raising it without the upper and lower shrouds attached! Why would you want to do this?

I would think you could raise the mast fully upright with only the baby stays if you parked the boat on a slight uphill grade.

You could attach the forestay and rig the shroulds at your leisure using gravity to hold the mast back, from coming over forward and possibly over-stressing the base plate.

You could probably do this in your driveway by chocking the trailer wheels and raising the hitch.

Sheer lunacy, IMHO.
The lever arm is huge.
(Imagine a thiry foot long cheater bar on a wrench)
The "tabernacle" will offer very little resistance to keeping things straight.
But, of course, it's your boat.
At least, make your attempt on a zero wind day.

Best of luck to you.

Please post pictures of the damage.



School of Hard Knocks
Deans list Graduate/ with honors

OK MOM YOU CAN RELAX NOW.

thanks guys..really though chill. Sitting at home picturing the rerigging i had to do was daunting.

Had a bit of a crisis at the end of last season (not boat related) and was forced to kind of just dump the boat off with someone who stored it indoors for me. All the lines, shrouds, halyards etc were a tangled mess. Entirely my fault but under the circumstances i has little choice.

So as i said was daunted by the image of all that untangling and was trying to picture it mast up instead as i thought it might make it easier to get around all the mods. Full enclosure bows, downriggers, rod holder brackets etc often catch a cable as the mast goes up and my wife scurrys around unsnagging them as i raise the mast, or vice versa.

But as I am not in fact totally insane as obviously nor are you all once looking at it again it is ridiculous. I had envisioned the baby stays as being higher on the mast. I think they are only about 5' above the deck.

Sorry to have had you all nervouse for me.

Good to have people looking out for you though.

Scott

cuisto wrote:Good to have people looking out for you though.

Sure enough IS

Rick

Thanks for raising that question. Now I have another. At the end of the season last year I tried to lower my mast alone in a strong breeze and bent the eazy stays on my shroud lines. I just switched to turn buckles and was wondering if raising the mast will be any different ? I have them adjusted to the prior ez stay length and will tension them later with a guage. I want to keep them attached of course because my fingernails have had enough of ring dings for a while.

One of the nice things about the factory stays is if you bend them, you can bend them back and keep using them, within reasonable limits. There is also no reason to disconnect them for trailering - leave them hooked up and learn how to manage the shrouds for trailering to prevent rubbing damage.

Shroud tubes serve a dual function of stopping your jib sheets from getting stuck and also keeping your shroud plates upright while rigging.

Real turnbuckles are nice (and expensive) but once you bend them you throw them away - its too hard to assess how they have been weakened. Of course, on our boats, you can lose a shroud without losing the mast so its not as catastrophic as some other designs. Not so for the forestay turnbuckle of course.