MacGregorSailors.com

Hello folks,
I need help with troubleshooting my Battery and current going to the Engine.
I have a Suzuki DF50 connected to 2 12-v Deep discharge batteries. Electric connections from battery to Boat Utilities are via a 12V DC patch panel and then there’s a second patch panel for the Navigation Lights. I do not have any electronics except a portable GPS that is always left disconnected when not in use. A handheld VHF gets charged through the cigarette lighter socket in the patch panel. There is an Ammeter on the patch panel which registers Voltage on the battery that is connected through the Red Perko Switch (1, 2, All, Off).
I also have a shore-connection and a Guest 6 Amp charger.
Some old pictures of the setup here: http://tinyurl.com/ybd44vb5
I last used the boat and engine eight weeks back when I went to my usual Mooring and got onto the boat and started the Engine and went for a ride of approx. 1 hour. While on my way back I flicked a Cabin Light switch to ON (I have 3 cabin lights that use LED bulbs) and it immediately fused and could not come on. I tried the other 2 cabin lights and they were dead. I (think) the Engine was running at this point. I had to return home and quickly moored the boat and left without investigating. I do not turn the Perko to Off, and is usually at position 1. I only visited the boat after 8 weeks (day temperatures have been around 75 degrees).
When I visited the boat, the batteries were dead. There was no current to the Engine!
I unhooked the batteries and took them home and put them onto a trickle charger for the night. One of the batteries registered 12.8+ volts and the other (was showing 6.7V initially) came up to 12.2 volts. So I replaced both – now charged – batteries and tried to start Engine. No lights and no engine! However, I see that now there is current till the patch panel as now the Ammeter in the panel is showing deflection and the patch-panel switch (red toggle switch) is lighting up when put to On. However, my cabin lights are not coming on and the Engine would not start!
I have never had this electric problem. Batteries, I believe have been getting charged by the Engine, therefore the engine always comes on.
I then put my portable multi-meter onto the batteries and saw that the good battery was showing 12.2 volts and the bad battery was showing only 8 volts – so I know that the bad battery is dead and never really came up (battery with the red label) and the other battery (green label) is charged. Lately, I have suspected my second battery (with a red label) and now I know it is dead.
1. Where is the circuit breaking since my cabin lights are not coming on?
2. Where is the MacGregor generally Grounded (Blue Water Yacht’s boat)
3. Why is my Engine not coming on? Where is the circuit for this – what should I be checking?
4. Is there any way I can lift the Engine up without power since I have to haul out the boat this weekend and need the engine lifted before I bring it to float on the trailer at the boat-slip?
I will be visiting the boat again this week and any advice is gratefully appreciated.

I'm going to start off simple, but did you try bypassing the Perko switch? Do a direct connection from the engine to battery? Start your diagnostics by simplifying the circuit and start adding patch panel etc... Also check inline fuses to engine , panel, etc. Engine is grounded to the battery. All grounds lead to the negative terminal on the battery. There is no common grounding point with the exception of the battery

eodjedi wrote: All grounds lead to the negative terminal on the battery. There is no common grounding point with the exception of the battery

I guess this answers it- that there isn't any common ground point that I should be looking for in the boat. I should be looking for a break in connections. Thanks!

Just a couple shots in the dark but...
-shifter in neutral?
-kill switch key in place?
-Double check neutral shift sensor under cowling
-fried rectifier or stator from low battery charging or crossbridging?
-loose connection at remote helm (throttle control) related to neutral start or kill switch sensor?

Oh and one other thing. In the photo here where the arrow is pointing, is the cover to a bolt. That bolt is a common ground for all of the ground wires in the fuse panel. A wire runs from the bolt all the way back to the battery. Cheap on Macgregor's part, but it works. I switched mine out with a bus bar.

We also have a 2000 Suzuki DF50.

When you turn the key does the engine;
A) make a "click" sound
or
B) make "no sound at all"

Hello,
Did you check the voltage at the battery with the lights turned on?
The reason I ask, it's possible the battery has voltage potential with no load but then drops when a load is applied.
You can put your Volt meter across any cable to see if there is a voltage drop in between. For example connect the meter red lead to battery positive and the meter black lead to the switch for the lights. When you turn on the switch your meter will read the voltage drop through the circuit. You can check the ground integrity to the motor the with the same procedure.

A trickle charger (2~4 amps) on a group 24 battery should take 40 hours or more to charge up from dead. Was it charged for that long?
The voltage at a fully charged battery still connected to the charger should read 13.5 to 14.2 volts depending on the charger's output current. It should settle down to 12.5~12.8 after sitting disconnected from the charger a while. Smart chargers bring the battery up to 14.2 for 15~30 minutes every day or two then keep the battery at 13.2 the rest of the time.

yukonbob wrote:Just a couple shots in the dark but...
-shifter in neutral?
-kill switch key in place?
-Double check neutral shift sensor under cowling
-fried rectifier or stator from low battery charging or crossbridging?
-loose connection at remote helm (throttle control) related to neutral start or kill switch sensor?

Thanks for the pointers!
Yes on the Shifter and Kill switch questions.
- Neutral Shift Sensor? OK, shall investigate.
- Rectifier/Stator from low battery -- will check.
- Throttle connections at Helm - will check

Thank you!

eodjedi wrote:Oh and one other thing. In the photo here where the arrow is pointing, is the cover to a bolt. That bolt is a common ground for all of the ground wires in the fuse panel. A wire runs from the bolt all the way back to the battery. Cheap on Macgregor's part, but it works. I switched mine out with a bus bar.

Wow! Thank you for this learning!
Will open and investigate.

Wind Chime wrote:We also have a 2000 Suzuki DF50.

When you turn the key does the engine;
A) make a "click" sound
or
B) make "no sound at all"

Makes ZERO sound. No clicks. I think everything is 'cold' and no current is passing through except to the 12V Distt Panel situated below the Galley. There could be a break after that.

Don T wrote:Hello,
Did you check the voltage at the battery with the lights turned on?
The reason I ask, it's possible the battery has voltage potential with no load but then drops when a load is applied.
You can put your Volt meter across any cable to see if there is a voltage drop in between. For example connect the meter red lead to battery positive and the meter black lead to the switch for the lights. When you turn on the switch your meter will read the voltage drop through the circuit. You can check the ground integrity to the motor the with the same procedure.

I shall check the Voltage Drop on Load. And check the same for the circuit to Motor.

Don T wrote: A trickle charger (2~4 amps) on a group 24 battery should take 40 hours or more to charge up from dead. Was it charged for that long?

No. The Automatic Battery Tender is of the type that automatically shuts off once it 'thinks' the Battery is charged. This happened after approx. 18 hours.

Don T wrote: The voltage at a fully charged battery still connected to the charger should read 13.5 to 14.2 volts depending on the charger's output current. It should settle down to 12.5~12.8 after sitting disconnected from the charger a while. Smart chargers bring the battery up to 14.2 for 15~30 minutes every day or two then keep the battery at 13.2 the rest of the time.

Understood on the battery working. I think it works similar to the way you explained but I don't have any control on it. Built for dumb people!

prishi wrote:

Wind Chime wrote:We also have a 2000 Suzuki DF50.

When you turn the key does the engine;
A) make a "click" sound
or
B) make "no sound at all"

Makes ZERO sound. No clicks. I think everything is 'cold' and no current is passing through except to the 12V Distt Panel situated below the Galley. There could be a break after that.

That's great news! The ZERO sound from the engine when you turn the key (with charge in the battery) increases the chances that it's just a wiring issue from power to the engine, not a engine relay or staring motor bendex issue.

I'd follow the advice you're getting from the technical folks on this great site, chances are they will get your power sorted out, and when you do your engine will fire right up.

Fixing wires is always cheaper than fixing the engine ... but some times a little more frustrating

Neutral shift sensor- take the cowling off and get someone to shift in and out of gear. You’ll see there is a cam and a small black round sensor that the cam engages. Most likely very close to the oil filter if similar to the df70. If you’ve recently changed your oil you may have cracked the sensor housing and it stopped working or possible did it esleir and now corrosion has gotten the better of it. There will be no click as the enginethinks it’s in gear. OR it could just be out of alignment. Depress the switch and see if it changes anything the cross that off your list before chasing wire throughout your boat. Good luck

Folks, to wrap this up....
Initially, it was dead batteries.
I recharged the batteries and the engine was still not starting after cranking a doz times - I don't want to kill the starter!
Opened Engine cover.
Replaced 3 Spark Plugs with Suzuki Spark Plugs
Replaced Low Pressure Fuel Filter
Replaced High Pressure Fuel Filter
Added Fuel-Stab to gas in tank.
This made the engine start immediately. Initially there was white smoke (fuel-stab and new filters) but after about 2 minutes the engine ran very smooth and with low noise!

While running I received the Low Voltage Alarm (One Long Beep) from Engine - Suzuki gives that audible alarm when battery voltage falls below 9v. With the engine running, checked Batt1 and Batt2 - Both Batteries registered 8.0~ volts only
Therefore, upon someone's advice I did a test with the Perko Switch:
I've read somewhere to never move the Perko Switch once the Engine is running, but I'm not clear on this advice and decided to do the test.
Move Red Perko Switch from #1 - while the Engine was Running - to Off position - the Engine immediately died! My hypothesis is that that the Engine is not producing any charging current for the Batteries and that is why the Batteries are not charging. (I assume the Engine runs only because the battery is providing current to the Engine for sparking. Once the switch was put to Off, the Engine died as the Batteries were well below a level to provide current to the spark plugs. )

Anyway, my test showed me that the Rectifier/Regulator was not charging.
I purchased a new Rectifier/Regulator and installed it the following weeks.
I started the Engine (started easily).
Batteries upon starting were still around 9 volts.
With the engine running, I went up to the batteries with the meter, hoping to see something like 135 ~ 14.5 volts, but did not see that at all. Only around 9-10 volts. I guess my batteries are both dead and will need replacement next summer.

I now have started using my Solar Panel that I had just left aside. I realize that it works out very well with the solar panel.

Anyway, my engine is starting without issues. This spring I'll do the gear oil replacement and the water pump to make sure there is water coming out of the telltale! Will also work on the batteries and their connections.

Cheers!

You really should wire the engine directly to the house bank and a VRC/ARC between the house and the start battery. This way you wont cook your rectifier again (that happened when you switched your Perko to 'off' with the engine running). That way the engine's charging system will always see a battery. ARC's from Blue Seas are around $80; beats a $150 rectifier and I wont tell you what a new stator is worth.