MacGregorSailors.com

Hey Guys,
Great web site! I bought a new 05 26M last September and was absolutely thrilled with it the first few months. I do most of my sailing in San Francisco Bay, and am pretty much a novice sailor. In light winds, the boat performs quite well, however, in the heavier air, its a whole different story. I discovered this as of March, which is when our windy season starts. It is fairly common to get afternoon winds between 20-25 mph. The problem Im having is excessive weather helm, which overpowers the rudders and makes the boat round up. This happens even with a reefed main and a partially furled working jib. I didnt opt for the Genoa. When I get a strong gust, if I dont quickly let out the main sheet, the boat just pulls right into the wind. This happens most often close hauled but has also happened on a beam reach. The guys at Arena Yacht sales told me to keep the boat at no more than a 25 degree heel, which under such wind conditions is only possible with under-trimmed sails, while reefed. I feel silly out there being the only boat sailing around with the main luffing. I have read on this site and elsewhere that a backstay can help quite a bit in reducing heel angle and therefore reduce weather helm, but the 26M doesnt have one. Getting one installed may be challenging due to the rotating mast. Does anyone know a way to rig a backstay on the M? Have any of you experienced anything similar and if so what have you done about it? Also; although I am a novice, I have had quite a bit of time on the water since I got the boat, most of the time on San Francisco Bay, which is a challenging place to sail as many of you know. No matter what I do, the keel boats pass me up with relative ease. Are Macs just basically slow, or is it the inexperienced skipper? I am quite diligent to maintain good sail trim (wind conditions permitting.) Any feedback would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Leon

My optimum X heel angle is 8-10 degrees if I recall.. I believe the M is similar

20-25 on the Bay could easily be gusting to 30 in my experience, but there are many on the board with more local knowledge than I - Frank C for example.

SOunds like you should dump the jib altogether

An X or M (even a blue hull one) isnt going to outperform a keel boat - except in the number of places you can use it...

Mast rake is the adjustment that addresses the rounding up problem.
If you do a search on mast rake, you should find tons of info, since most of us with the X have had to do this. The backstay is not needed to adjsut rake.
Getting a jib will help also to balance the sail center of effort more near the center of lateral resistance.

There also is a tuning article by Bruce Whitmore under featured articles to the left.

First, I'm a novice sailer. So, my comments are based on my limited understanding...

But, as Craig eluded to, isn't this an issue of the center effort, of the sail, v. center of lateral resistance, of the dagger board?

Since you can't change the center of lateral resistance, unless you're REAL handy with fiberglass, all you can do is change the center of effort. Yes, Moe, I know you can change the center of lateral resistance on your X...

So, since the boat wants to round up (I think thats the right term) and point into the wind, you need to move the center of effort forward, right? It is too far aft, since it is pushing the aft end away from the wind, and thus the bow into the wind...

Obviously, you can get some difference by adjusting mast rack. But, in this case, wouldn't that mean tightening the forestay and tilting the mast more forward, rather than pulling the mast back with a backstay?

I'd think the first thing to do is to reef the main, which would reduce the total effort and move the center of effort forward. But, wouldn't you need the jib? Wouldn't you want to trim the jib to maximum performance, since it is also pushing the bow away from the wind? It sounds like you've done this...

So, couldn't you also pull up some dagger board? While this may not significantly change the center of lateral resistance, it will reduce the magnitude of the force pulling the boat into the wind, wouldn't it?

What do the real sailors think?

Hello:
I don't think a backstay is possible with a rotating mast. What needs to happen is to depower the main sail. When the main is reefed it usually has a big belly. A cunningham type setup might work to help flatten the belly. Just like aircraft wings, flatter means less lift. Keeping the main out of trim does not mean luffing. If that is what is required to sufficiently depower the main, you might as well drop it all together. If you have the vang and kicker then you can also raise the boom so the top of the sail twists off to leeward. Only the lower portion is developing power. Same can be done to the jib by moving the car aft. This allows the clew of the sail to rise and the top to twist. It reduces heel by depowering the top of the sails. Force is reduced and moved closer to the center of gravity.

We have gusty conditions on the Columbia with the wind changing directions suddenly. My friend and I have been working on an "auto trim" system for the main and jib sheets. It can react faster because we get little or no warning that a gust is coming. With having to tack every 3 to 5 minutes and dodge freighters, it gets real busy sometimes to keep the speed up and the boat on it's feet.

Like Craig said, it's the mast rake that causes the weather helm. The more the mast tips back the more prone you'll be rouding up. Likewise, the closer you are sailing to the wind and the stronger the gusts, the more likely you are to round up.

The first thing to try is adjusting the forstay turnbuckle to bring the mast up a little straighter. You may neen to loosen the shrouds some to do this. Make sure you tighten them once the forestay adjustment is done.

If that's not enought then you can ether shorten the forestay or raise it on the mast a few inches. Keep in mind that it's probably a good idea to leave some weather helm. It gives you a little bit of built in safety. It may be better to round up then get knocked down in a sudden blow. I believe MacGregor sets it up that way because of the large percentage of novice and first time sailors that buy their boats.

It took me 3 seasons of gradually improving sail controls on my 26X before I could hold a close tack on a typical summer afternoon. Even then, it's a special day when everything is synchronized and the boat is "nearly" balanced for 18 or 20 knots. And in milder breezes, keel boats routinely overtake and pass me. In heavy air we might be as fast, but still can't sail as close as they can. Finally, yes, changing lateral resistance with a swinging CB is very important to controlling the X in heavier wind.

But, you have a different animal. I'd suggest setting these priorities for improvement:
1. Jib, not Genoa. Can't balance an X in heavy air on main alone, maybe the M will?
2. Reef the main - I have two reef points, the factory point was too high, adding second reef is 100 bucks well-spent ... and get slugs too.
3. Mast rake (88, not 86). Not sure for M, essential on the 26X.
4. Adjustable backstay helps flatten the main for a 26X, not sure for M.
5. Rigid vang @ 12:1 flattens the main. Rotating mast ... hmmm?
6. CONSIDER IMPROVING YOUR RUDDERS!

The M's rotating mast poses roadblocks for most of the heavy air controls that help the 26X. Sorry, but I don't really know what else to suggest. Someone here just posted that his investment ($400?) in new rudders is highly recommended. Since you can't use the $200 Garhauer vang anyhow, I'd first look at helping to better hold the stern's position. Good luck, and please post progress as you learn.

Hi Leon,

I suggest trying to flatten the main and move the draft forward. This moves the center of effort forward and reduces weather helm. A cunningham would help do this; if you have one, tighten it. Also tighten the outhaul and try tightening the main halyard. It also usually helps to move the traveller outboard. If you have a boom vang it may actually hurt you to tighten it too much. If it's loosened somewhat the top of the main will have a twist and spill some air. Also check that your rig tension isn't too loose.

We have a boom vang on our boat and it doesn't seem to hurt the mast rotation (I have other issues with the rotating mast). In fact boom vangs and cunninghams have been used on rotating masts with sucess for years. I haven't tried a cunningham on our 26M but I suspect it would also work fine if done properly.

Good luck! Let us know if any of this helps.

This site discusses mainsail trim:

http://www.arklowsc.ie/Sailing_Tips/Mai ... imming.htm

WADR, immediately preceding post (sorta the penultimate run-on paragraph) sounds awfully theoretical, in virtually every respect.

As I admitted, I haven't any experience with a 26M. I suppose the invitation still stands for anyone with real M-experience to contribute appropriate real-world advice on the OP's stated problem.

Wondering in particular if Mr. Inmon has any heavy-air suggestions, i.e. SF Bay w/ consistent 18 to 22 knots?

I appreciate all the helpful advice. I will start by adjusting the rig...tightening that forestay to move the mast rake forward. Next, I will look into investing in a downhaul/flattener and/or perhaps some heavy air sails. You mentioned high performance rudders. How are these actually better than the stock rudders? Are they larger, different shape, different material/weit, etc. ? And what is a good souruce to buy them? It is too bad that the rotating mast has so many limitations. Although it creates more speed in moderate to light air, it presents several obstacles in dealing with heavy wind conditions and depowring the main. I'm not quite ready to give up the furler. It is just sooo convenient, and is a quick way to create an instant reef in the iib. As for dropping the main, I have found that the boat has bad performance in strong wind and current with just one sail, either main or jib. Haven't tried it in light air... no need. Thaks again guys. I'll keep you posted on progress. It's nice to know that there is a Macgregor community out there.
Leon

You Yours wrote:Nothing is more theoretical than lack of experience!
I agree with you Frank,

Precisely why Mr. Inmon's contribution, clearly still absent, might be useful to many.

Well, Mr. Inmon ..... consistent heavy air in a 26M, any suggestions, "based on experience"

Leon,
No experience either with upgraded rudders. However, they are clearly an option that could help with directional control, regardless of mast configuration. My understanding is that there is only one provider (see magregorowners.com) and that they are better due to foil profile .... buyer beware.

Before throwing money at the problem, here are a few thoughts on what you have now...

Is your forestay turnbuckle adjusted as tightly as you can get it?

Does the forestay turnbuckle have cotter pins in it to prevent it from loosening?

Does your mast have the required bend (established by the upper shroud tension)?

Have you tried adding slightly more bend than recommended?

Is your jib luff as tight as you can get it in the furler foil?

Are your jib sheet cars all the way AFT on their tracks?

Is your mainsail halyard as tight as you can get it?

Does your mainsail have slugs on the luff to make it easier to tighten?

Is your mainsail clew outhaul as tight as you can get it?

Are you wrapping the outhaul line behind the cleat on the boom and pulling forward to get a 2:1 advantage?

Are you using the vang as little as possible, if at all?

Are you moving the traveler car from the leeward to the center or even the windward side, and easing the mainsheet? (can you do that on an M?)

That's a start anyway...

--
Moe

Moe, agree with most, but not all:

Moe wrote:Before throwing money at the problem, here are a few thoughts on what you have now...
- Is your forestay turnbuckle adjusted as tightly as you can get it?
- Does the forestay turnbuckle have cotter pins in it to prevent it from loosening?
- Is your jib luff as tight as you can get it in the furler foil?
- Is your mainsail halyard as tight as you can get it?
- Does your mainsail have slugs on the luff to make it easier to tighten?
- Is your mainsail clew outhaul as tight as you can get it?
- Are you wrapping the outhaul line behind the cleat on the boom and pulling forward to get a 2:1 advantage?

Agree w/ a taut rig, and with keeping it taut.

Moe wrote:- Does your mast have the required bend (established by the upper shroud tension)?
- Have you tried adding slightly more bend than recommended?

... but unsure that the rotating mast deserves pre-bend??
Anyone?

Moe wrote:- Are your jib sheet cars all the way forward on their tracks?
- Are you using the vang as little as possible, if at all?
- Are you moving the traveler car from the leeward to the center or even the windward side? (can you do that on an M?) .... That's a start anyway...

The "power-up" rule says that forward jib cars would exacerbate the problem. I'd choose cars aft to reduce power. And I'd dispute using a slack vang in heavy air. Ample vang tension helps pull the belly and flatten the main. Finally, I'd probably want the traveler downhill to help spill surplus air, rather than windward of center.

Just another coupla yen from X (the dark side of M).