Interesting article.

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Interesting article.

Post by Dguy »

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Ixneigh
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Re: Interesting article.

Post by Ixneigh »

That was an epic drama a number of years ago over at sailing anarchy website. Macs cannot carry enough sail to punch through ocean waves. Guess the guy missed the memo.

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Re: Interesting article.

Post by Inquisitor »

I found it an interesting read.

Ixneigh,

Would you have a link to the thread at Sailing Anarchy you described? I would be interested in reading it. A MacGregor search returns 300 hits... which I'm guessing is the max any search would return.

VBR
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Re: Interesting article.

Post by Russ »

Frank made some "interesting" claims of his Mac. I think he mixed much fiction into his stories which in turn generated a lot of "discussion"

You must know before clicking, SA is the polar opposite of this site. The members are some of the nastiest people on Earth. Hardcore sailosr and few actual boat owners. I think many crew on other boats. They have no concept of simply boating for the joy of boating and they view the Mac as a boat to mock and make fun of. So when Frank makes outrageous claims, he feeds right into them.

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index. ... -murrelet/
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Re: Interesting article.

Post by Inquisitor »

Russ wrote: Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:40 am You must know before clicking, SA is the polar opposite of this site. The members are some of the nastiest people on Earth.
Gahd, you're not kidding. One page of insults with no facts. Five minutes of that was enough for me.

But if the link'd article is TOO optimistic, I would be interested in a more factual, supported evaluation on the subject of Mac off-shore ability. Is there such threads here or other? Again, any search I try... gives thousands of hits. I tried.
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Re: Interesting article.

Post by Jimmyt »

Inquisitor wrote: Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:17 am I found it an interesting read.

Ixneigh,

Would you have a link to the thread at Sailing Anarchy you described? I would be interested in reading it. A MacGregor search returns 300 hits... which I'm guessing is the max any search would return.

VBR
Very little over there worth reading, unless you want to get aggravated. :? Not a nice, collaborative bunch like over here. Just cut-throat back stabbing. As Russ said, Frank dealt Macgregor PR a huge blow with all of that.

I've taken my Jboat buddy out on mine and he had a fine time playing with the Mac. I didn't start off the invite with "do you want to see how a real blue water racer sails?", though. :D
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Re: Interesting article.

Post by Jimmyt »

Inquisitor wrote: Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:56 am
Russ wrote: Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:40 am You must know before clicking, SA is the polar opposite of this site. The members are some of the nastiest people on Earth.
Gahd, you're not kidding. One page of insults with no facts. Five minutes of that was enough for me.

But if the link'd article is TOO optimistic, I would be interested in a more factual, supported evaluation on the subject of Mac off-shore ability. Is there such threads here or other? Again, any search I try... gives thousands of hits. I tried.
You'd have to zero in on which Mac boat you are interested in. Each has its own strengths and weaknesses. The M rudders and rudder brackets would keep me inshore except in very favorable weather. Not sure about the dagger board strength, but don't trust it for off shore - unless in favorable weather.
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Re: Interesting article.

Post by Inquisitor »

As a risk taker, I'm not
Image

I don't want to go to Hawaii. but the Bahama's... certainly.
  • Wouldn't do a crossing I can't make at 15 knots on the motor with fuel to spare if I had to. I would prefer to sail and take all day.
  • Wouldn't go if weather report hints at badness
  • Would have radio, radar, water-maker, EPRIB, satellite, etc.
I understand that many people find the risks too high. I would like to understand the risks better. If I got caught with a storm coming with no way to out run it. I can raise the daggerboard, rudders, lower the mast and tie it down and throw out a sea anchor. At that point, I'm not trying to punch through the waves. I'm hunkered down inside. It won't trip on a keel. Sea anchor will keep it pointed into the waves. Righting moment will be even higher with the mast down. Positive buoyancy will keep it floating.

Using a Mac's weight vs size (density) a 40' catamaran at 29,000 lbs would get "tossed" about the same. Heavy ones are usually in the low 20K, performance ones are in the mid teens. They would ride every wave like a race car. The Mac would be a comparative Cadillac.

So... what aspects are safer on 32' boat of whatever make that people make that kind of trip without thought?

I'm not trying to convince others, I trying to find a logical reason that forces me to get a bigger boat that won't do the things a Mac will. The OP gave me hope that the risks are negligible. Yet, you're all saying that is WAY to optimistic.

Just don't want to go under ignorance is bliss. Rather, know and mitigate as best as I can.
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Re: Interesting article.

Post by NiceAft »

Ray ~~_/)~~
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Re: Interesting article.

Post by Jimmyt »

So... what aspects are safer on 32' boat of whatever make that people make that kind of trip without thought?

There is no size or type of boat that I would want to do 70 miles of Bluewater on without thought. With the proper forethought and planning, a 70 mile trip in a Mac shouldn't be any more risky than any other boat. A multi day passage is a different story; where weather can change, and the distance is too far to make a high speed run to safety. 70 miles at 15 mph is under 5 hours. You should be fine. If the wind dies and you have to motor, you can still be there before dark. :wink:

I would suggest the rudders, rigging, and dagger are weaker than a Bluewater boat. The light weight will just make the ride uncomfortable compared to a big keel. Same for the short length. But, the boat will handle it better than the crew.

I wouldn't choose to drop the mast in a blow. In fact, I'd probably keep a patch of sail up and try to sail through it, picking my angle with the waves rather than using a sea anchor to keep the bow straight upwind. But, I'm being hypothetical because I would make every effort not to be caught in weather like that.

If you look at the Dauphin island race disaster, they knew there was going to be some weather. They just misjudged how bad it was going to be. Several boats got caught with full sails up. This was Mac water, not Bluewater. Remember, storms can be coming at high speeds, giving little time for preparations of any kind. Radar would help, but likely won't tell the whole story of a rapidly developing system. Best to go when there is NO prediction of bad weather - regardless of how big the water is...
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Re: Interesting article.

Post by NiceAft »

Imquisitor said:
If I got caught with a storm coming with no way to out run it. I can raise the daggerboard, rudders, lower the mast and tie it down and throw out a sea anchor
First off, you are not lowering the mast in anything but calm waters. Attempting to do this in anything else can be damaging.

Second, “hoving to” is a last ditch effort.

These Mac’s are tougher than given credit for. That does not mean I will not avoid the situation you describe, but if caught, I will not hove to.

I was caught in a storm once while sailing on Lake George, NY. The sky behind blackened (not grey overcast, but black), and was approaching rapidly. I tried to outrun it (lowered the motor, raised all boards, and redlined the tach) to no avail. I ended up racing to the leeward side of a small island with tall trees. Dropped anchor and let out 120’ of rode. The Admiral and I went below, closed the hatch, and played Scrabble at the dinette table. The storm lasted maybe 10 minutes, and passed over. All was good.
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Re: Interesting article.

Post by Drifter »

Here's my simple take...

Where I live there's no coast guard, no Seatow, and the general plan is if you're in trouble you get on channel 16 and yelp for help. If your trouble is bad weather there's no help, because everyone else will be running home. "Best of luck ya!"

Under those conditions, many locals will go 3, 5, even 10 miles off the coast in boats like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mala ... _boats.jpg

As you can see, this boat has lost its mast - because it never had one. It's also lost the upper deck and the entire cabin, and all the sailing rigging is gone completely...

The built-in flotation? MIA.

Bilge pump? Optional, for overnight stays (cos rain can sink it...)

To me, this is a common site when I'm miles off the coast:

https://depositphotos.com/156226494/sto ... n-the.html

So yes, treat the sea with great respect; it's a force of nature that doesn't care if you're one of the many creatures that dies today, or not. But on the other hand, it's a self-righting, self-bailing positive-buoyancy boat with both sails and an engine.

8)

Of course a single lightning strike and you're toast(ed), and all sorts of things could go wrong. I'm just saying I'd FAR rather be off shore in a Mac than a low, open tub of a thing that I see locals using.

Same with my off-road adventures by motorcycle. I'll go with a gang of guys, we're all suited-n-booted in our adventure gear, got GPS on the bars, panniers of spares, fuel, water, all kitted out and ready to tackle some Borneo mountains and jungle. Then while we're out there see some old guy puffing his pipe as he putputputputs his way up the hills on his Honda 90 with knobbly tires...

Just do it. One day you'll be too old.
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Re: Interesting article.

Post by Inquisitor »

Drifter wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:17 am Here's my simple take...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mala ... _boats.jpg
https://depositphotos.com/156226494/sto ... n-the.html

Just do it. One day you'll be too old.
Two things...
BIG brass ones!
and Amen.

Edit: I'm sitting here trying to put myself in your shoes... you must think we're a bunch of panty waste, brats... afraid to go ten miles off shore with cabin, full floatation, sails, motor, radar, 15 radios, satellite phone, EPIRB, best weather prediction and best Coast Guard in the world full of guys that would love to prove how they will overcome any condition to save our sorry asses.
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Re: Interesting article.

Post by Ixneigh »

The Mac is not a blue water boat nor was it intended to be. It’s strong enough to deal with inshore storms and stuff. I’ve taken a V222 all through the Bahamas. Had a few scary moments but the boat did fine. The M and X are superior seaboats. They don’t have a big chunk of iron attached to the boat with a single pin, for starters. The higher freeboard and narrow beam make complete inversion less Likely. However. What makes this boat not a great sea boat, only a better sea boat than a v222, is the lack of ability to carry enough sail to punch through waves. Water ballast, unless pumped to the high side, frankly bites. High windage and same narrow beam mentioned above, a rig with no backstay (M) and light weight (won’t carry her way very well) means that you probably wouldn’t even be able to GET to the blue water, and if you did you’re not going very far in it. Want a shallow hull dagger board type boat that WILL do blue water? Try an ETAP. it’s beamier, heavier, has less room, costs Wayyyyyyy more if you can even find one, and has about five times the mast and rigging strength. I don’t know for sure off hand but I doubt they have water ballast. The seaward fox is another slightly more blue watery boat than the Mac. No headroom there either. The smaller the boat and the more freeboard it has, the less capable it’s going to be. The macs freeboard helps make it safe, but robs it of sailing ability. (In heavier conditions)
Note that other small yachts are equally sucky. In fact anything that’s small and has any more than sitting headroom is not going to be that great. I had a 23 ft heavy keelboat. Built like a tank. Weather ability in anything above 20k was non existent. I was terrified of the prospect of any sort of really bad weather with her because her huge transom hung rudder would prohibit lying to a sea anchor, hulling, or heaving too. (It would beat itself to death) so I was limited to running, with or without warps. With the Mac one could lie to a sea anchor OR put a try sail up, pick up the rudders and board and execute a sort of hybrid hove to business, OR run off under a scrap of jib. I know on the west coast people take them to Catalina, which I guess is like an east coasters Bahamas. I’m sure they watch the weather carefully and try their darndest not to get stuck in storms out there.

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Re: Interesting article.

Post by Inquisitor »

Thank you all. I'm starting to get the picture. I sounded cavalier about other boat owners sailing without thought and I want to make sure I re-iterate my position on this subject: I won't leave port without beautiful sailing conditions projected for well over the average sailing time to the next destination or sheltered anchorage. I believe this gives me a significant safety margin considering the motoring speed is well over 3x the sailing speed. I am not a thrill seeker looking to challenge Poseidon.

My experience is very limited. One time caught on a lake with thunderheads and 30+ knot wind. Short little whitecap chop was merely an annoyance. Second, was a sail on a beautiful sunny day with a group of Macs from Jacksonville, FL to St Augustine. Being my first time out in the ocean, I held back behind my fellow (local) Mac sailors to learn the ropes. A "good" northern wind gave huge (to me) rollers on the Gulf Stream. I understand gauging height is difficult... I can say, my fellow Mac's appeared at times to be about mid mast underwater to me. :) I was having to be sloppy with the trim to hold back behind the experienced ones. This lasted for about an hour when after several cats went flying by and hubris set in... I said enough of this Micky Mouse... I raised the spinnaker and blew on by and left them. The BEST E-ticket, roller coaster sail of my life. The admiral was not pleased, but bit her lip because of the smile on my face. Our biggest complaint was waiting for two hours in St Augustine harbor for the next boat to come in. I didn't know which marina they had organized for us.

I think I am reading from you all that its not the boat that is in jeopardy, just the abuse on the occupants???? I know our boat was not designed for blue water sailing. It was first to optimize the disparate criteria of (1) cheap (2) pretty good sailing (3) better than average accommodations for size and (4) high speed motoring (for a sailboat). The OP's article along with Roger's video can lead one to believe blue water sailing was at least accounted for structurally. In fact, Roger's video was risky marketing and would have set up the company for liability if something were to have happened.

Now... I'd like to ask for elaboration on the general consensus that, "You would not heave to... No sea anchor use." Say... some extraordinary circumstances (motor failure, unforeseen squall) find me 25 miles from the nearest land with breaking seas. I now understand, I can't make progress into the waves. My logic is still leading me to... a sea anchor keeps me pointed into the waves and I'm in LESS risk than larger keel boats of rolling and just sit it out inside. On the other side of the fence, some article I've read (from your links, links from links, searches... I don't recall) said the best course of action is to motor with the waves, matching the wave speed and ride the backside of one wave till they subside.

Maybe, to understand you better, I need to hear you're criteria of "BAD"... wave height, wind speed, breaking waves, etc... At what point is it just doing the normal sailing thing, starting to reef, and then... being concerned and diverting to shelter, then making sure the EPRIB is at arms reach.

Your thought????
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