Two Outings, Two Different Outcomes

[Jimmyt]

Yesterday, my buddy with the Packet 31 invited me to participate in a fuel pump replacement, followed by an afternoon sail. The previous owner had totally screwed up the fuel system. We knew something of this, as he had already removed an electric inline pump that appeared to be in line with the low pressure mechanical pump on the engine. When we dove in, we found that the PO had actually bypassed the mechanical pump. Surprisingly, the engine ran - presumably, there was enough head in the tank to get fuel to the injector pump. There were cobbled together connections, barbed fittings, hose clamps, etc, in place of the factory banjo fittings with braided stainless covered hose.

It was now obvious that we weren't going to finish this project in a day. Adding insult to injury, the new fuel pump he ordered came without the block gasket, so we couldn't even mount the new pump (without getting gasket material and making a new gasket. So, we got a parts list together and headed to the marine diesel parts shop. Naturally, what we needed had to be ordered, so we put in the order and headed back to the boat.

After we regained our composure, my buddy asked if we should try going out for a short sail. He knows better than to ask me if he doesn't want to go. I said, let's put the old pump back in to plug the hole in the block and go sailing. Since I wanted to go, I put the pump back in. We fired up the diesel and motored out of his slip. The tide was still coming in, but we thought it was up enough to get out. As we were approaching the end of the harbor, in a twist of fate that smacked of divine intervention, the engine died and we ran aground. So, we were stuck right in the middle of the harbor - not drifting toward the rocks on either side.

Well, we dove into the engine and found water in the fuel. His racor was slap full of water, and had been for awhile from the looks of things. The metal at the top of the filter cartridge was covered in rust. About the time we figured out the issue, someone from his club saw us and called to rub our noses in it. After the required harassment was complete, he brought the clubs power boat out and towed us back in. Once back in the slip, we continued to pull parts of the fuel system out. The final filter, mounted on the engine had water in it, also. What's worse, there was so much algae in the filter element that the water/fuel blend inside of the filter element wouldn't even drain through it.

We spent a few minutes plotting a course to remove the water from the rest of the fuel system, then headed for home...



Wishing he was trimming sails, my buddy is diving into the engine compartment trying to figure out why the tank he drained two months ago has water in it... Fortunately, our buddy Charley (looking on) has a good diesel game.


Today, my buddy with the Potter 19 invited me to go for a quick afternoon sail. Hopped on the boat at his dock, fired up the old Yamaha two stroke kicker, and off we went. Raised the sails in the river, shut the kicker down, and spent a few hours enjoying a beautiful 65-68 degree, cloudless afternoon.





Takeaway: A day on a boat is good, even if you're working on it. A day of sailing, with no issues, is easier to enjoy.

[Starscream]

Good story!

I hate working other people's stuff: if something goes wrong, you feel like it's your fault even if it isn't, and you were just trying to help. Did you have a worry that you had messed something up when the motor stopped? A relief to find out it was something else?

A buddy of mine brought in his wife's car for a front brake job last week that cost him over $1,000 at the dealer. My wife has the same car, and when I did her brakes the rotors and pads retailed for $150. Took about an hour and a half to install and saved almost a grand! Woulda done the job for him if i had known he was going to spend that much, despite my fears over breaking something else.

[Jimmyt]

Good story!

I hate working other people's stuff: if something goes wrong, you feel like it's your fault even if it isn't, and you were just trying to help. Did you have a worry that you had messed something up when the motor stopped? A relief to find out it was something else?

A buddy of mine brought in his wife's car for a front brake job last week that cost him over $1,000 at the dealer. My wife has the same car, and when I did her brakes the rotors and pads retailed for $150. Took about an hour and a half to install and saved almost a grand! Woulda done the job for him if i had known he was going to spend that much, despite my fears over breaking something else.

Nope. I knew it wasn't anything I did.

But, your point is well made. I'm very selective about who I help with their vehicles/boats unless it is a minor issue. I'm not going to change a fuel pump (or anything major) for someone that isn't a very close friend. You can get into the "no good deed goes unpunished" scenario. Some people will want you to warranty free work... Or, blame you for something unrelated that broke three months after you worked on their boat/car.

[Stickinthemud57]

A young guy at our marina bought an S26 with new sails, but a defunct inboard motor. Repairing the motor proved to be prohibitively expensive, and I suggested he just buy an outboard motor. He is now enjoying his boat rather than throwing money into the engine.

One of the things that keeps me from being jealous of other boats (I own a Mac 26S) is the amount of room the engine takes up in the boat. The 26S has a HUGE double berth under the cockpit that just isn't equaled on boats of other manufacture, even of longer lengths.

I have had my share of engine trouble, but the 8 horse Tohatsu 2-stroke is easy to remove so I can take it home to work on it. It sips gas, and can take us anywhere on any of the lakes we sail without worry at about 7 knots.

So, for the kind of sailing we do (protected waters, day sailing, occasional overnighting), the kicker is the best solution. I simply don't care to have a boat with an inboard engine.

But that's just me...

[NiceAft]

Perfectly reasonable thinking. To each his/her/they own.

[Jimmyt]

A young guy at our marina bought an S26 with new sails, but a defunct inboard motor. Repairing the motor proved to be prohibitively expensive, and I suggested he just buy an outboard motor. He is now enjoying his boat rather than throwing money into the engine.

One of the things that keeps me from being jealous of other boats (I own a Mac 26S) is the amount of room the engine takes up in the boat. The 26S has a HUGE double berth under the cockpit that just isn't equaled on boats of other manufacture, even of longer lengths.

I have had my share of engine trouble, but the 8 horse Tohatsu 2-stroke is easy to remove so I can take it home to work on it. It sips gas, and can take us anywhere on any of the lakes we sail without worry at about 7 knots.

So, for the kind of sailing we do (protected waters, day sailing, occasional overnighting), the kicker is the best solution. I simply don't care to have a boat with an inboard engine.

But that's just me...

My thought is, if you buy something that you don't know the history of, is 30+ years old, and you want to rely on it; you need to go through it completely when you first get it. After you've done that, there may still be a gremlin or two left, but you will have gotten it to where things that go wrong are generally manageable; and few.

I agree, the inboard engine does eat a lot of valuable boat volume.

If you aren't a mechanic (shade tree or professional), this is probably not something you want to tackle. So, removing the inboard and dropping on a new kicker is a great way to go. However, putting a kicker on a 31 ft keel boat is no minor task. Additionally, it's hard to make a kicker aesthetically pleasing.

Reactively repairing things that go wrong on old stuff can get tiresome, so it's better to bite the bullet and be proactive - essentially making the system like new (as close as you can). I've done it with old cars that I wanted to make daily drivers, and it works so much better that way. Plus, you know exactly what condition everything is in and how it's all put together.

As starscream points out above, if you have to pay to have that level of work done, it can get prohibitively expensive.

It also helps to have friends that are skilled in areas where you might be weak - for consulting purposes.

Also, when they build sailboats, the fuel tanks may be the first component in the mold with the entire boat built around it. A kicker with a portable tank gives you a great recovery setup in the event you get bad fuel. We can't find enough guys to hold that 31 ft keel boat upside down and shake all of the fuel tank contents out... . Water and algae in the fuel are his immediate problems. Getting it out, and keeping it out, has eluded him at least once. We'll see how it comes out this time.

[Russ]

Water in a gasoline engine is bad. Diesels are less forgiving. Add bio stuff and you have a challenge. Especially as you stated, with a fuel tank you can't take out and clean.

That bottle looks disgusting.

I don't envy your buddy. Cleaning that junk out isn't going to be fun.
The next step is to prevent it in the future.

Messing with boats still beats a day at the office.

[Jimmyt]

Messing with boats still beats a day at the office.

So true!

[OverEasy]

Suggestion:
Power flush all the lines from fuel tank to engine aft getting tank cleaned.
Look over the top of the tank for pin holes that could be letting water in.
I’ve dealt with similar water/algae diesel fuel. That crud will get into EVERYTHING and grow back unless you get rid of it EVERYWHERE.

[Jimmyt]

Suggestion:
Power flush all the lines from fuel tank to engine aft getting tank cleaned.
Look over the top of the tank for pin holes that could be letting water in.
I’ve dealt with similar water/algae diesel fuel. That crud will get into EVERYTHING and grow back unless you get rid of it EVERYWHERE.

Seems so easy to do when you write it.

Used suction flush on the lines until pure fuel flow achieved. Then suctioned the bottom of the tank to try and scavenge more.

No way to drain the tank, no good access to it. No hand holes, etc. The top of the tank is below the cockpit sole, so shouldn't have standing water (or any water) on it - unless condensation stands on it. Thanks for the tip. I'll be sure he he checks it.

The tank is entombed in the boat. Getting it really clean isn't going to be easy.

Current plan is to get as much out as possible, then add more separation capacity. Continue to monitor and flush and see if we can figure out the source...

[OverEasy]

Hi JimmyT!

No, it isn’t easy!!!
I “hate” tomb tanks but they are what they are.
I never design equipment with a diesel tank that can’t be removed with minimal effort. Especially in a marine environment. It’s just no that hard to plan on getting it out for service, cleaning, repair….can’t help but see “entombing” a diesel or any tank as improper.

I’ve cut access ports large enough to get in with at least a swivel power wash and suction pipe. Once clean and rinsed it is dried with forced air.

Fuel lines I’ve flushed with hot steam and compressed air for scouring out the crud from the walls and corners.

Yes, it can be a mess but once done and water excluded from entering the systems have run clean.

Fuel input into a clean tight fuel system is paramount. Input bad fuel is the real problem.
Getting a supplier to actually check and replace filters if required is a challenge. Some are good guys and some are not.

Your friend really has a friend indeed!

Best Regards
Over Easy

[Jimmyt]

That agrees with our diesel expert's theory. He was concerned that we cleaned the tank and simply refilled it with bad fuel on the last go.

Thanks for your input. We'll get it. There is a silver lining. If his boat won't go, we might get to go sailing in mine!

I know mine wouldn't have grounded in the harbor!

[OverEasy]

Hi JimmyT

I know that you already know this but wanted to post this for those who might not

https://itstillruns.com/water-out-diese ... 74038.html

Baja filter
https://www.practical-sailor.com/boat-m ... el-filters

With any suspect fuel I highly recommend using some sort of input water filter.
I wouldn’t worry about the fuel dock feelings as a good dock won’t care but the bad docks are the ones where they skimp on changing their fuel pump filter changes. ( If they have them at all…)

“ the very first filter in the defensive array. It’s the rudimentary fuel oil filler funnel. Most have a seemingly crude screen or two to catch the bad stuff; some are considerably more involved. The question is: Are they worth the effort?

Of course, they slow down the refueling, and the guy on the dock will be pecking away: “Hey, you don’t need that filter. We’ve got the cleanest fuel in town.” And your answer can be: “Well, we’re about to find out, aren’t we?”

A half-dozen specks in the filter aren’t of much concern; but as you pay the bill, the dirt is good stuff to show to that loudmouth. If the funnel starts showing sludge (and there’s that telltale odor of sulfur), stop immediately, cast off your lines, utter as many epithets as you can remember from your days as a muleskinner, and seek another fuel dock.”

Best Regards
Over Easy

[Jimmyt]

Hi JimmyT

I know that you already know this but wanted to post this for those who might not

OE,
I appreciate all information. Diesel is not my strongest subject, so I'm happy to have any advice offered. I have a fair gasoline game, but my diesel game is a work in progress (still on the steep part of the curve). As it turns out, being able to analyze the thermodynamics and being able to twist a wrench on one are two entirely different skill sets.

Since this isn't my boat, I can only make suggestions, then help the owner perform whatever measures he decides he wants to take. I won't let him march off a cliff, but I'm not going to cut an access port in his fuel tank unless he wants to. His friendship means more than my need to be right/do things my way.

Pre-filtering the fuel seems prudent. He could have easily done it on the first tank cleanup/refill as he used portable fuel cans to re-fill (not near a fuel dock). In fact, he may have used some sort of filtration - I can't remember. Anyway, I sent him the info on the filter funnels. Good read.

[Russ]

Pre-filtering the fuel seems prudent. He could have easily done it on the first tank cleanup/refill as he used portable fuel cans to re-fill (not near a fuel dock). In fact, he may have used some sort of filtration - I can't remember. Anyway, I sent him the info on the filter funnels. Good read.

Filling from portable fuel cans is better than from a fuel dock hose. It's better to purchase fuel from a source that refreshes their tanks often vs. a fuel dock that may have old fuel or water in their tanks.

It's hard to be the buddy because as you mentioned, it's not your boat or your rules.

Diesel tanks with warm fuel return lines on sailboats that don't refresh fuel that often and that live in warm climates like yours are a perfect breeding ground for bio stuffs.

And there is always YOUR boat that as you mentioned, would not have grounded.