MacGregor Sailing Accident - Safety Reminder

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Jimmyt
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Re: MacGregor Sailing Accident - Safety Reminder

Post by Jimmyt »

PSNA wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2024 9:36 am That video is deceptive as hull. For the life of me, I never understood why they released it.

Notice that the boat is on the same point of sail the entire time. Reason?
Agree. Roger was all about selling boats. Some of the sales propaganda was over the top.

He was filming from the helm of his 65 Mac. So, he had his hands full getting the footage he got. Tacking either boat in that environment would be a job.

Tacking an M, heavily reefed in a blow, is very difficult; too light, and too much windage. Gybing, very carefully, or starting the outboard and power-assisting the tack, are the options. Then, you have the swell to deal with… Never sailed the 65, so can’t speak to that.

The right skipper and crew can sail a washtub in a hurricane, but you shouldn’t make a video that implies it’s safe to do that.

And, someone made the comment about 300 lbs of fixed ballast - which is only true for the M if I recall correctly. The boat in question was an X.
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pitchpolehobie
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Re: MacGregor Sailing Accident - Safety Reminder

Post by pitchpolehobie »

I think its easy to see from the video that he was really filming not to show the boat in its usual comfortable sea cruising state but to show that it wasnt so lightly built it would fall apart in any but the lightest condition.i cant imagine anyone would watch that video and think i should buy this boat to routinely sail in 40mph wind and 18ft swells......well maybe someone...To me he was proud of what he built. Maybe that comes off as over the top.
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Russ
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Re: MacGregor Sailing Accident - Safety Reminder

Post by Russ »

pitchpolehobie wrote: Sun Nov 10, 2024 7:32 am I think its easy to see from the video that he was really filming not to show the boat in its usual comfortable sea cruising state but to show that it wasnt so lightly built it would fall apart in any but the lightest condition.i cant imagine anyone would watch that video and think i should buy this boat to routinely sail in 40mph wind and 18ft swells......well maybe someone...To me he was proud of what he built. Maybe that comes off as over the top.
Yes

Mike Inmon (who is captaining the boat in the video) said Roger called him during this day and asked him to go out and make this video to prove the boat is solid. Mike wasn't thrilled.
--Russ
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Jimmyt
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Re: MacGregor Sailing Accident - Safety Reminder

Post by Jimmyt »

Watched the entire video again.

The camera boat was a 70, not a 65.

The 26 is shown on both tacks.

Wind: 42mph average gusting to over 51mph.

Paraphrasing Roger: …we had several days of unusual weather and took a Macgregor 26 out sailing under a gale warning. …We don’t recommend sailing a small boat in those conditions, but if you find yourself out in those conditions, it’s reassuring to know that the boat can take it…

Roger made this video showing the boat sailing in those conditions, with the company owner and a prominent dealer. Is saying “we don’t recommend this, and this is one of those don’t try this at home things” enough?

Maybe it’s enough, for some of us (as pitchpolehobie indicated). Then, there are others who go out to see how the boat feels in that stuff. After all, Roger showed us it can take it.
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kurz
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Re: MacGregor Sailing Accident - Safety Reminder

Post by kurz »

Russ wrote: Sun Nov 10, 2024 9:47 am
pitchpolehobie wrote: Sun Nov 10, 2024 7:32 am I think its easy to see from the video that he was really filming not to show the boat in its usual comfortable sea cruising state but to show that it wasnt so lightly built it would fall apart in any but the lightest condition.i cant imagine anyone would watch that video and think i should buy this boat to routinely sail in 40mph wind and 18ft swells......well maybe someone...To me he was proud of what he built. Maybe that comes off as over the top.
Yes

Mike Inmon (who is captaining the boat in the video) said Roger called him during this day and asked him to go out and make this video to prove the boat is solid. Mike wasn't thrilled.
Do we know why Roger did not pilot the :macm:
:-)
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Russ
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Re: MacGregor Sailing Accident - Safety Reminder

Post by Russ »

kurz wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2024 12:21 pm
Russ wrote: Sun Nov 10, 2024 9:47 am
pitchpolehobie wrote: Sun Nov 10, 2024 7:32 am I think its easy to see from the video that he was really filming not to show the boat in its usual comfortable sea cruising state but to show that it wasnt so lightly built it would fall apart in any but the lightest condition.i cant imagine anyone would watch that video and think i should buy this boat to routinely sail in 40mph wind and 18ft swells......well maybe someone...To me he was proud of what he built. Maybe that comes off as over the top.
Yes

Mike Inmon (who is captaining the boat in the video) said Roger called him during this day and asked him to go out and make this video to prove the boat is solid. Mike wasn't thrilled.
Do we know why Roger did not pilot the :macm:
:-)
He was filming from his Mac 70.
--Russ
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PhysicsTeacher
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Re: MacGregor Sailing Accident - Safety Reminder

Post by PhysicsTeacher »

Just to mention another partial ballast situation . . .
This only happened to me once, but I forgot to put the stopper valve back in to the front of the V-berth after filling the ballast. I had opened the ballast valve and removed the stopper upon arrival at a dock, and then immediately gone for a swim. Returning to the boat a couple of hours later, I closed the ballast valve but forgot about the stopper.
We then went sailing in strong winds, heeling over significantly on both tacks. Several hours later when I returned to the boat ramp, I found several gallons of water in my bilge.
I don't know how much water spilled out of the ballast through the opening under the V-berth, but I definitely was sailing and motoring with only partial ballast that afternoon.
Now, whenever I remove the stopper valve, I put it on the helm seat (or set a timer on my phone) to make sure I don't forget.
No trees were killed to send this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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kurz
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Re: MacGregor Sailing Accident - Safety Reminder

Post by kurz »

I connected a tube to vent the ballast tank. It goes to the anchor locker.

No forgetting anymore...

And even more I have a LED Light that shows the ballast tank is full.
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Dougiestyle
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Re: MacGregor Sailing Accident - Safety Reminder

Post by Dougiestyle »

Photos? I think like this
I connected a tube to vent the ballast tank. It goes to the anchor locker.

No forgetting anymore...

And even more I have a LED Light that shows the ballast tank is full.
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kurz
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Re: MacGregor Sailing Accident - Safety Reminder

Post by kurz »

OverEasy
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Re: MacGregor Sailing Accident - Safety Reminder

Post by OverEasy »

Hi All!

I’d care to strongly Disagree with the following statement:
A problem with the 26X is that if the ballast is out, you can't fill the tanks when the wind and waves are rocking the boat. At that point it's too late.
That’s just WRONG as I’ve filled my ballast several times when the weather has been up and rocking and rolling 25 to 35 degrees.
No, it’s not easy and yes you have to be careful and yes you do what you need to do even if you are scared, old and with physical limitations. The storm they encountered was not instantaneous. They had time to prepare, even if limited.

(There is in my book NEVER a valid reason to EVER panic and NOT DO WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE if it is within your capability to do it. That’s my personal perspective. No excuses.)

From the limited video photos evident it seems:
>> The boat appears to have been attached to a mooring ball AFTER being towed in to harbor based upon the video segment.
>> There was a small craft advisory in effect at the time.
>> The vessel was out on the water and apparently in operation at the time of the incident.

This information differs from the original static photo I saw originally and news broadcast.

It opens up an entire realm of potential possibilities as to what may have occurred….

>>If the Sea swell could have been upwards of 90 degrees to the axial boat centerline which which would have whipsawed the boat back and forth. This could have caused unsecured equipment and personnel aboard to have been tossed from one side to the other and piling up which could lead to a shifting the center of gravity to one side.
- That goes back to how the vessel was loaded or OVERLOADED. There were apparently 6 individuals on board in addition to engine and possible fuel. What else did they have aboard? A couple 5 gallon cans of water? Food stuffs? Anchors? Chains? A full portolet? Batteries? Bedding? Other ‘stuff’? If they were overloaded with unsecured stuff then packed in loose people around it then whether they had Ballast in or out isn’t to blame….

>>>>But if they had PARTIAL ballast and an overloaded vessel full of stuff and people THEN that is a recipe for disaster!
- A partially filled ballast is worse than no ballast at all as it will shift fore/aft and or MOST LIKELY side-to-side changing the center of gravity, and hence stability, dramatically. This is why ANY water ballast system should NEVER be only partially filled. Rodger did make specific mention of this in the boat operating instructions. Full or none.

—- Now, I no longer believe that maybe the vessel captain was trying to flood the ballast during the weather event…and got caught in-process.
—- Now maybe the vessel captain didn’t have a vessel overloaded with unsecured stuff and people …. but with six individuals aboard I’m inclined to suspect it was.

>> Then there is the aspect of if they “surfed” a wave or swell…. That can and often does go badly very quickly.
I sincerely wonder if that couldn’t be the real cause… Turning about in heavy swells and wind conditions can be challenging ….
It’s a skill that even with the best can go wrong. There have been many vessels much bigger than a Mac26 that have come to capsize when caught in a “surfing” event.

Given, per the photographs, the vessel is lying on its side in a stable condition in calm water with roughly less than 50% of the hull above water along the vessel vertical axial centerline…. I highly suspect that there are several heavy objects lying within the bottom submerged portion of the cabin interior keeping it there… IF the original safety flotation was all still in place as was designed. I would still have expected that there would have been some degree of self righting if the ballast tank was completely flooded but if the vent plug was dislodged between incident and harbor there may have been some draining of the ballast tank water that could have occurred.

There is also the possibility that they may have been clipping along heeled over an’ close hauled and took a wave over the gunnels with the companion way hatch open.
Same thing as above and the forward hatch opened and a wave flooding the interior or a cabin window failure…

It’s all speculation on my part at a severe distance disadvantage… there are multiple possibilities that could have contributed to this incident.
I would REALLY like to see the actual official investigation findings and evaluations.

I’m very very sorry someone died and that five others are bound to be traumatized because of this incident for a very long time.
But from my experiences and professional background there is more at play here than whether the ballast was full or empty and even less so as to whether it was a Mac26X or Mac26M.

Best Regards,
Over Easy 8) 8)

PS: I always turn into the wind and wave or swell when in challenging conditions in any vessel … sunfish, row boat or Mac26.
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Starscream
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Re: MacGregor Sailing Accident - Safety Reminder

Post by Starscream »

OverEasy wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 11:24 am

I’d care to strongly Disagree with the following statement:
A problem with the 26X is that if the ballast is out, you can't fill the tanks when the wind and waves are rocking the boat. At that point it's too late.
That’s just WRONG as I’ve filled my ballast several times when the weather has been up and rocking and rolling 25 to 35 degrees.
No, it’s not easy and yes you have to be careful and yes you do what you need to do even if you are scared, old and with physical limitations. The storm they encountered was not instantaneous. They had time to prepare, even if limited.

(There is in my book NEVER a valid reason to EVER panic and NOT DO WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE if it is within your capability to do it. That’s my personal perspective. No excuses.)
Point taken, but I think I'll stand by my statement. IMO ballast is like reefing: if you start wondering if you need to then it's already too late. Waves can build up quickly, and if you are IN the new wind and waves and THEN start filling your ballast, by that very definition you'll end up in situation with wind and waves and partial ballast. Depending on how wavy it is, that situation can last a long time as the ballast will step a few gallons forward, then a couple back as the boat gets tossed around.

I've been in a couple of situations where I realized that I would prefer the ballast to be full, and then tried to fill it. When the waves are such that the ballast valve is often out of the water, I don't feel confident in the filling speed, or filling completeness, and am very aware that I'll be going through a partial-ballast situation in waves rough enough to make me want ballast. Maybe I'm wrong there but that's been my impression from my experiences. In my sailing grounds one is never more than a few miles from a treeline so now running unballasted to calmer waters is my choice. While I take your points, I'm not going to put myself in a situation where I attempt a ballast-fill in rough conditions. Maybe I would take the other path if the ocean was my playground, but I don't think I'd ever let myself get out of an easy empty-ballast escape run to shelter if I was on the ocean. Ballast would be in automatically before leaving.

It's good to know that the ballast can be filled while rocking and rolling 25 to 35 degrees. Personally I would be afraid to try because that would mean that the boat was partial-ballast at 35 degrees and I'm too scared to try that.

MBMR :D
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Re: MacGregor Sailing Accident - Safety Reminder

Post by NiceAft »

I happen to agree with Starscream.

A lot less verbose way to say the same thing is: the difference between being smart and being wise is a smart person knows how to get out of a situation which a wise person would not get into in the first place.

Be wise, keep the ballast full.
Ray ~~_/)~~
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Re: MacGregor Sailing Accident - Safety Reminder

Post by OverEasy »

Any word on an official accident investigation report?
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Russ
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Re: MacGregor Sailing Accident - Safety Reminder

Post by Russ »

I fill ballast early in the season and never empty it until the end.
I just don't see the benefit of running sans ballast.

Oh, I guess if you want to eek out more MPH or fuel economy it makes sense. I own a Mac not a Malibu and spend so much on other things, fuel is the least of my expenses.

Bottom line, I check weather and radar before heading out. Make sure all safety systems are ready.
--Russ
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