MacGregorSailors.com

Seriously, lets consider some (respectfully suggested) additions to the site.

I think people could benefit from Salty Sailor Lessons Learned organized in a simple Newbie access manner. There is a tremendous amount of information on this site and it is a normal misconception among the experts who assume that newbie sailors understand things at the same level of terminology. Or that they have the knowledge to search and drill for information. And if they can drill to the information that they can put it together in a meaniful manner. Most newbies are trying to understand why blue hulls are faster then white hulls. The truth is that at my sailing club, there are 3 Mac X Captains who can sail their white hulls backwards faster than I can sail forward (unless of course I fire the 90 horse motor up and put them in their place. I have done that to maintain my manhood).

There are really three levels of information a newbie sailor needs.

Level 1 - what are the critical things I need to know to get the boat off the trailer and into a slip? (Fill the frickin ballast, drop the rudders and center board or you will suffer extreme humiliation and look like a raving maniac on a windy day). Speaking from personal experience and humiliation.

Level 2 - how to take the Admiral out for the first cruise without going into a panic attack and when the frickin motor dies and you are washing towards the rocks. (open the frickin vent on your gas tank, don't hit the frickin gas line connection with your foot and disconnect it without knowing it). Speaking from personal experience and humiliation.

Level 3 - how to add some key goodies that will make a big difference of your sailing experience. Shaping sails and boomkickers. Sail-Kote spray on you slugs so your main sail will come down without manual effort. How do you use a frickin traveler?

At my job, one group I have reporting to me is a technical training and web design group. My rule is the grandmother rule. You need to provide information at the level that your grandmother can understand to get started down the path and cheat the learning curve. Then you need to provide knowledge paths that people can explore and grow upon.

Who wants to form a Newby thread and develop the 50 (80 or 500) things Mac forgot to tell you (to save 42 cents in paper costs?) Dont get me wrong, I love my Mac, it is my background image on my PC at home and work. But I think in this information age, the newbies on this board could come up with the common knowledge gap questions, and the old salty sailors on the board could furnish the direct connected experience. Dealers all offer varing degrees of knowledge. There is not a standard for knowledge transfer of fundimental Mac tips.

What are the top questions Newbies have and what are the direct answers Salties can give? Does everyone agree that RichandLori would make the perfect Newbie moderator??? A perfect partnership, new cool guys and old salty duffers who know all the tricks.

This does not need to be all inclusive, but it could cover all the "stupid sailor tricks" that we have all encountered.

This is a great idea!

--Mike

Far out fantastic idea. I'm sure it will help old and new alike. I even bet there are some on this site that are NEW but are hiding that fact. The way I look at it is that you are never to old to learn besides it is a way to keep on top of your game!

K9piper

Could not have said it better though I have tried a couple times here

"At my job, one group I have reporting to me is a technical training and web design group. My rule is the grandmother rule. You need to provide information at the level that your grandmother can understand to get started down the path and cheat the learning curve. Then you need to provide knowledge paths that people can explore and grow upon. "

Every thing that came on your Mac has a manual. Even the gas tanks came with instructions. Now some dealers dont include such things when you buy a boat. This is where things start to go wrong. Macgregor shouldnt have to supply the paper with the tanks because they didnt install them. The dealer did. Take inventory of all your extra stuff you had installed on the Mac after it left Macgregor plant. Anything that doesnt have some instructions could be found on the web from the Manufacture.
Like the tanks, They probably are tempo, and tempo has a site.

In the engine manual I bet there is a section that tells you to make sure the gas tank is vented.

Get a large interoffice mailbag and store all your manuals and papers in that and keep it on board, after you read it all a couple times.

Part of the problem you are asking for is who is an old salt? I have been around boats for 45 years and Im still learning and even with that things get over looked. How does someone like me give unsolicited advice without coming off like a know it all. "Will you still love me in the morning?" Best to ask and then sort through the info you get to find the right fix.

I read your other thread and was surprised that no one suggested the vent
Maybe they thought you already knew. Sometimes the info you get is great for discussions but doesnt help you one bit. Thats the problem with boards. You have to weed through the great dissertations about this that and the other and all you really wanted to know was how to open a vent.

I think your best bet would be to study the manuals and if you dont understand something ask.

We all have done what you did, making mistakes can be costly and dangerous, but the costlier and the most dangerous leave a huge impression and your not soon to forget. Im not trying to be a smart ass here its just the way things are done. Normal course of events sort ta say.

The other problem is how do you know whats right for you. An example is a line led aft suggestion I made a while back for the M. Simple works and I thought no brainer. But at least 4 or 5 people poopooed it and came up with
Ideas that would give a mechanical engineer a headache. The poor guy that really wanted to know what was the best way to do it was faced with
All this and probably gave up.

Keep things simple and go one step at a time see what works for others and decide whats best for you. That takes some knowledge of what youre trying to do in the first place. The boards are like the Internet itself, everything you ever wanted to know is there but you first need to have an idea of what you want.

I would personally answer any questions you might have in the best way I can. But if you think its dumb or your going to be confused PM me and we will keep it private.

If I posted a list you can bet that some would disagree and now confusion sets in for the reader and no one gets help.
My 4 cents

Aya16 - you have a good point that trying to do the newcomer FAQ thing will get corrupted by discussion from more experienced people debating whats correct...etc...

I still recall trying to get through vang tension discussions when I was still at the level of trying to figure out which side of the boat I should have the boom on....

I did a quick search for a thread some while back on TOP TEN mistakes when beginning but couldnt find it....pretty good case for a Bubble for Beginners I could argue...

Suggestion
The key here is OWNERSHIP, if you can talk Heath into starting a BEGINNERS BOARD TIPS bubble to the left, assign one or two moderators who move all the talk back into the discussion group when it gets chatty...I think this would be worthy. I dont know how much hassle this is for Heath, though.

Coming from a newbie point of view, I would love to see such a site. I would be willing to put the information on my personal site if we can't get it posted anywhere else on the forum. There are so many ideas and practices floating around on this forum that would have made me do a lot of things different on my initial purchase. For newbies buying new boats, most will find it much cheaper to get these tricks taken care of up front so it is in the financing package instead of on the credit cards. That part of the forum would take care of the initial purchase, rigging and modifying. Then you finally get everything done correctly, but now you need some information on how to put it all into practice in the water. The 3 levels you mention sound perfect. Sure there will be a lot of bickering back and forth about what is the best, but when it all comes down to it, information on something that is OK, not the best, is better than no information at all, especially as a beginner.

Some of this should fall on the shoulders of MacGregor. I fully understand and appreciate keeping things cheap. However, they should produce a suggested Add-on, modification, speed-rigging and more in depth sailing set of instructions. Since they don't, then it really does fall on us to help insure that newbies know what they are getting into and what they can do to make their lives more enjoyable...and in some cases may even prolong their lives.

That, gentlemen, is the $64,000 question...

In reality, arn't we talking about a "new to Sailboats" forum as much as a "new to macgregor" forum? I agree 100% that as a new sailboater and new Mac owner there are 100's of unansered questions and it would be nice to be able to find a way to boil them down. The hard thing now is how to do it because the information is already on this site, it just isn't searchable by one easy phrase like:

"Show me all posts that I have information in them that I don't know"

or

"show me all the posts that will make me a better seaman"

So the question seems to be, it there a way to organise threads that will make searching for them eaiser?


Rich

I think you have a great idea Randy. I"ve been around boats of various sizes all my life, from canoes to destroyers, and although most of us know that we're supposed to call a rope a line, who really cares as long as it does what its supposed to do .I really enjoy this site, and dont post too often , but every now and then it seems like a good idea. That being said, sometimes the fellow members on here do tend to get carried away with their answers. We all had to learn at one time or aother what a boom vang or a tang or a crinkle was, so lets give the newbies the benefit of our knowledge and help them enyoy sailing as much as the rest of us. I think newbie question area is a top notc h idea

Rich - Disagree

it just isn't searchable by one easy phrase like:

"Show me all posts that I have information in them that I don't know"

That very same search works great, and since it returned empty I conclude I am up to speed....

Why is my engine stopped???

I'm certainly part of the target group for a newbie board, as I truly don't know what I'm doing on a Mac or any other sailboat. My younger years were spent in canoes and fishing boats, so this whole notion of wind power still gets my poor brain tied up in knots. (I like it though!)

If such a newbie board were to appear, I'm sure I'd stop by and see what I could learn. I'd appreciate the opportunity to learn some basics if it were presented in an accessible, friendly format. Unfortunately, at this point, I don't even know enough to know what I don't know. In fairness to all the hard working contributors to this forum, I wouldn't lobby for a newbie board. I think it's pretty awkward to put this together in a meaningful fashion for people at such varied levels of experience and native ability. I'd rather know that folks are out enjoying their boats rather than trying to cyber-educate a greenhorn like me.

In my experience, going from the know-nothing stage to glimmers of comprehension takes some structure and plenty of hands-on, make-mistakes type of learning. I expect I'll do most of that with the forbearance of my captain amid peals of laughter from the young'uns. I'll also look around for local classes, as time permits, especially in the cold months.

Actually what I was suggesting is a bubble to the left over there that links to a FAQ. Virtual collaboration of key lessons learned.

I am not talking as much about all the stuff contained in 40 manuals and brochures, or available if you search 70 websites, I am talking about lessons learned from people to save a newby from scaring the crappola out of their spouse or tearing the boat and motor up before they can sift through a ton of information, assimilate it and be able to apply it usefully. Lets face it, most manuals are factual and not educational. Facts are great if you know how to apply them and know what questions to ask. And not all people are brain wired to sit down and devour manuals to learn.

One recent itch was not knowing about vents on fuel tanks. The Mac manual does not cover it. The Tohatsu manual does not. The fuel tank manufacturer's web site does not have that info or available manuals. The dealer did not give me any information. My motor kept dying.

Another mistake it appears that many newbys have made is not realizing the critical nature of putting boards down to maneuver in a marina. I skinned my wonderful fast blue hull, others have admitted to that too. Thank God for the 3M company and their wonderful products. Without boards down, it is like driving a bumpum car. Yes I know the manual talked about that, it is just that some former powerboat people (bonehead me) would not appreciate the importance.

Most folks have learned through hard knocks. I have made some real bonehead mistakes. I have learned. I was just suggesting that the power of web technology is packaging knowledge where people can assimilate it and ease the learning curve. That is all I was suggesting.... Top 10 on how not to be a bonehead. Not a replacement for all the manuals. That would be a nightmare trying to keep those up to date.

A Newbies Advisories topic would be a good idea - assuming there's really a correct answer to any given question. but considering that everyone here is an amateur, who's to say which posts are "correct" or "accurate" enough to warrant promotion to the Altar of Newbie Advisories?

Each newbie now allocates a measure of their own time and effort to pore through thousands of posts, assimilate hundreds of opinions, and draw their own conclusions. Ergo, rewards are proportional to effort. Granting that I'm guilty of proffering my experiences to some questions ... YMMV ... and Chip might usually have the opposite opinion. IMO, Moe's correct ... his new Sticky with owner manuals is the best answer for Newbie Advisories.

The only other enhancement I'd like to see (really, really like to see) would be a Google-style search field. Sometimes I'd like to search for a sub-phrase within a range of dates or authors, and the current search field isn't that capable.

P.S. Google has a "site search" feature that enables you to use Google's engine to search only a specific website (e.g. macgregorsailors.com), but my experience with it is spotty. Sometimes it works, many times it does not.

For example, it finds this: Harken 225 site:macgregorsailors.com
But it fails for this: windward sheeting site:macgregorsailors.com

yes of course thanks