"the demise of paper charts

[Moe]

Here's another vote for paper charts and a lead line (and sextant if offshore) and regularly using them in concert with modern electronics.

[hartflat]

(Unfortunately, the discussion board won't allow me to place url's in my post, until I've posted at least 10 messages, so I can't include links in my post yet.)

Sorry if I gave the wrong impression in my last post. I'm not at all opposed to GPS as a primary navigation resource, I just don't believe that for now, it should be the only option. I'm an avid fan of GPS, ...& redundancy & backups & plan B's.

Duane... Sorry for seemingly over-simplifying the way GPS works.

Yes, GPS does works on several satellites simultaneously, not just one. Each GPS satellite transmits an accurate position and time signal. The receiver measures the time delay for the satellite signal to reach the receiver, which is the direct measure of the apparent range to the satellite. Measurements collected simultaneously from four satellites are processed to solve for the three dimensions of position (latitude, longitude, and altitude) and time. However, even with WAAS augmentation, if you knock out just one satellite via a solar flare, or satellite eclipse, (even briefly) you'll get a delayed response, or innacurate reading. If there's another bird readily available to lock onto you may avoid a delay in relative position, but real-time accuracy can be compromised.

Going back to the topic of GPS reliabilty, at your leisure check out an article in Power & Motoryacht Magazine entitled "The Dark Side of GPS":

The article makes reference to a 2001 Department of Transportation (now part of Homeland Security) "Volpe Report". In the report, the DOT & FAA acknowledge that there are vulnerability issues in the GPS system.

According to the report:

"The FAA currently has certified GPS for primary means oceanic use and as a supplemental system for domestic en route through nonprecision approach (NPA) operations. As a supplemental navigation aid, GPS cannot be the only navigation system carried onboard the aitcraft"

The report goes on to say:

"The GPS system itself does not have an integrity monitoring capability that can satisfy the stringent requirements for aviation. Therefore other tecniques must be applied to ensure that the pilot is provided with a timely warning if GPS should not be relied upon for navigation"

Although as recreational sailors, we are not as concerned with FAA's "safety-of-life flight requirements", the need for navigational accuracy, reliability & safety are still there.

The entire Volpe Report can be found at the USCG/NAVCEN website.

Hope this ain't TMI.

[bastonjock]

i wonder when the day will come when you can update your electronic charts on a monthly basis,i have a electronic navigator in my wifes car and once a month i download the updates.

A facitlity such as that would be most usefull,it would save on having to read notices for mariners etc and before we all say i would not trust such a service,how many of us actually read "notices to mariners" and mark the changes on a regular basis on a chart?

what i think will finally spell the end for paper charts is such an operation,
satelite comms will eventually expand to encompass downloads and comunications anywhere on the planet

there are a lot of us who still like the look and feel of paper charts,personally i find that my admiration for people such as shackleton etc grows with every time i plot a course to steer.

I wonder what Ernest Shackleton would have made of electronic charts?

[hartflat]

Shackleton was amazing. Unlike many of us, he wouldn't have broken a sweat if his GPS had taken a dump.

1-About 2 yrs. ago, on a flight from Bakersfield, CA to Sedona, AZ, I lost GPS service for almost 30 minutes while flying between Edwards AFB & the "Skunkworks" facility in Palmdale, CA. Navaids, visual aids & my trusty kneeboard with a good ol' fashioned sectional chart gave me such a cozy feeling. The GPS data "updates" were as current as could be, but they were of no use to me at that moment. The "secret" goings-on in that area may have been a factor, but I guess I'll never know.

2- Several weeks ago, while on a night sail off Channel Is. Harbor in CA, my Lowrance Airmap GPS (which doubles as my sailboat GPS) with what I thought were the most updated coastal charts did not show several beacons that were clearly visible & showed two that were not. However, my paper charts were current enough to be accurate. I subscribe to a current, yet costly aviation data update for my Lowrance, but I have yet to find the same for Lowrance compatible coastal charts.

E Chart updates on a monthy basis would be sweet.

[c130king]

I just finished reading the US Sailing Certification Series "Coastal Navigation" written by Tom Cunliffe in 1999. Mentions GPS...does not include chartplotters. Also talks about Loran-C...does anyone use that anymore? Advocates using charts and traditional chartplotting techniques.

Since I predominantly single-hand I can't see using paper charts while underway. I agree with Duane, everything I need is on my chartplotter.

However, once my coastal cruising starts to expand I will probably buy paper charts and various cruising books. Mostly for pre-cruise planning and as the third-string back-up to my primary back-up which is a battery powered handheld GPS. I also plan to get some sort of mapping/planning software for my laptop...just haven't figured out what I want yet.

I downloaded the Fugawi demo software. Didn't find it too user friendly. But I have time...since my boat is still over 3,000 miles away for probably a few more years

But I am REALLY looking forward to my Day Skipper RYA course in 3 weeks. 5-days freezing my @$$ off in the Solent...can't wait

Matt (aka Bastonjock), let me know how your course goes.

Jim

[bastonjock]

hi jim

if you look at some of the older 80s boats for sale,they still have loran in them,mind you a sky jocky should know all about Loran.

my day skipper theory course is going well,ive got two more exams to go,and 5 weeks from now i get on a plane to the Islas Canaries for a weeks sailing

if i can find Tom Cunliffes book "day skipper" ill drop it in the post to you

[c130king]

Never learned Loran. Don't think the C-130's I flew had Loran. We had some old systems that we never used...but that was all Nav $h^t...my responsiblity was driving bus.

We got the GPS upgrade in the early 90's. But we didn't have moving map until 5-6 years ago when the Navs figured out how to integrate a laptop with aeronautical charts to the GPS. And then the moving map was only viewable at the Nav station.

I imagine the new J-model has moving map displays for the pilots. But I have many hours of low level flying doing the old clock/map/ground technique. GPS "distance to go" definitely makes chart reading much easier though. It could take a few seconds to figure out 6 minutes at 210 Kts ground speed was 21 miles and then find the 21 mile mark on your chart...all while doing simulated threat avoidance manoevers.

I will be dreaming of the warm sunny Canaries while I am shivering in the Solent. But hey, this is what sailing is all about.

Jim

[bastonjock]

yeh loran is a bit out dated,i believe that it was first used by the RAF pathfinders in WW2

as for freezing in the solent,why not try out some of those Nato "heat me up" packs,you just add water and stick it in your pocket,keeps your hands warm,or anywhere else you want to place it,you can get then quite easily at the gov surplus stores

i was going to do some mods to the boat this weekend,but the forecast is for snow

[eric3a]

..

[puggsy]

You should have our problems here in western Oz. [ 36 degrees south/ 115 degrees east] The ' powers that be' for some unknown reason have scrubbed the large area charts and replaced them with multiple small area ones. If you need to do a long trip, many are needed...at $AU25 each.
The days of plotting one long course on one chart are over.
But anyway, our coast is straight up and down north and south with hardly a bend. My old dad [ a self taught lobster/ crayfish...Western rock lobster/ expensive] used to say...Africa, turn left, australia, turn right...going north...and the reverse going south.
stay on the 100 fathom line and all will be well...
what a navigator...
Boating must be hereditary.
Its just a shame that he never got to see my

[bastonjock]

Hi pugsy

i pay 75.00 GBpounds for a Cmap that slots into my made in KIwi Navman chartplotter,i can get a wide area map for 200+GBpounds.

I was smiling when i read your post,last night i popped into my Local Supermarket and had a look at the fish section,on sale for the first time was Lobster,i had a closer look and it came from Western Austrailia ,
they are selling at 10.00 Gbpounds each [/b]