Voids in water ballast tank of 26M

[Chip Hindes]

Argonaut couldn't have explained my position any better.

I'm the chief mechanical engineer in a manufacturing company. We're ISO9000/9001 certified. I have on several occasions spent more than the selling price of an item (not the margin) in order to remedy customer complaint issues which may or may not have been our fault. If your product is basically sound you can afford to do this and it is a wise decision on occasion. Your customers will understand that despite all your efforts, a high tech product will sometimes make it out the door with defects. If you accept responsibility and take whatever steps are necessary to repair or replace the defective product ASAP, most of the time you will be rewarded in the long run. If you have to pay your own suppliers expediting or put your factory workers on overtime to produce the replacement, you do it.

If on the other hand you nickel and dime your customers, they won't be your customers for long, and they certainly won't refer you to their friends.

Neither the Mac factory nor the dealer have any right nor any reason to go on the defensive about this. If what we're saying has contributed to their current defensive posture, they simply don't get it, they are looking at it in bass ackwards fashion and they are wrong. It's time for some remedial instruction in Customer Relations 101.

One more time: Treating the customer as if he is the one being unreasonable is flat wrong. They need to step up right now and get this fixed.

[Divecoz]

Kevin,

I'd say your estimate is fairly accurate. It cost over 3 grand to get my cracked transom repaired and this problem is more serious. These guys aren't cheap and it can be a very nasty job. Somebody is going to have to deal with all the itchy fiberglass, nasty dust and brain deadening chemicals in close quartes to fix this problem.

THAT POOR BUGGARD WILL ONLY BE GETTING ABOUT $8 to $12 an hr they may charge $45 to $60hr. but the man performing the work, taking all the health risk etc. will still be making very little . In the end you get what the BOSS is paying for NOT what your paying for Just so you know

[waternwaves]

Just think how much MAc is saving by finding this now, rather than from an insurance company that had the boat insured and might have had to pay the claim for a capsize , drowning or other life theatening claim.

Seems that finding this before the crew was washed out or drowned in freezing waters is a good thing.

My guess is the Survivors/nsurance companies/and attorneys wont make a dime off this one...lol

[kmclemore]

Kevin,
I'd say your estimate is fairly accurate. It cost over 3 grand to get my cracked transom repaired and this problem is more serious. These guys aren't cheap and it can be a very nasty job. Somebody is going to have to deal with all the itchy fiberglass, nasty dust and brain deadening chemicals in close quartes to fix this problem.

THAT POOR BUGGARD WILL ONLY BE GETTING ABOUT $8 to $12 an hr they may charge $45 to $60hr. but the man performing the work, taking all the health risk etc. will still be making very little . In the end you get what the BOSS is paying for NOT what your paying for Just so you know

That's not entirely true, Divecoz. Whereas I agree many manual labourers are far underpaid for their talents, I'm not sure that good glassfibre layup persons are underpaid - indeed, they can make pretty darned good money. Much like a good body-man, they are part artist, part technician. I know this because I spent some time as a 'glass layup man myself at Lotus Cars, Ltd. and I supervised both body and 'glass techs while managing my own restoration shop.

Also, remember that when you consider the cost of any worker you must also allocate the Social Security, healthcare, insurance, etc., and I included a basic estimate of that amount in my hourly figure.

[Bill at BOATS 4 SAIL]

I contacted Bill Snedeker at MacGregor. His response:
"Bill - I'm trying to get a handle on this problem. I am not going to hazard a guess as to what we are going to do until I can get someone familiar with the boat to take a look or at least get some pictures showing leak locations etc. I asked Mr. Stanton to get his boat back to his dealer for inspection as soon as possible. He indicated he also would try to get some photos to help us understan what has happened. "

[Mark Prouty]

Thank you Bill for interjecting. I really want to believe that the folks at the factory are honorable and will help resolve this manner diligently and honestly. I hope we get the results of the dealer inspection and some photos soon.

note: acknowledge your subject - "Going Ballast-ic"

[waternwaves]

The question was asked... About thickness and flaw detection in fiberglass,

Several companies make fine measurement equipment., and others make detailed inspection equipment capable of detecting flaws, utilizing optical, thermal, ultrasonic (transverse and longitudinal wave interference), pressure and other types of measurements.

I am not comfortable recommending only one manufacturer over all others....because each have their advantages, and flaw detection requires an intelligent operator to interpret the data in many cases.

But one company I have bought ultrasonic equipment from to do thickness testing, and flaw inspecton, leak detection transducers etc... has been

Panametrics.

thickness gage

Flaw detector



Good luck.

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

I was just re-reading your initial post...

The fifth leak is from a plastic disc which is affixed to the top of the ballast tank in the port side, aft berth storage compartment located immediately behind the battery compartment. The disc has sealant around it but leaks nonetheless.

This is a bit strange. Coincidentally, my boat came from your same dealer almost 5 years ago. There is a transducer for my depth sounder installed in about that same spot, except that it is not through the ballast tank, it is in the hull in between ballast tank chambers. I don't know any reason why there would be a disc glued to the tank coming from the factory. You sure these are fiberglass manufacturing flaws and not some other sort of holes drilled through the ballast tank?

[Mark Prouty]

I was just re-reading your initial post...
I don't know any reason why there would be a disc glued to the tank coming from the factory. You sure these are fiberglass manufacturing flaws and not some other sort of holes drilled through the ballast tank?

Excellent point. I am viewing this as a jurer now. Something funny here.

[ken lockhart]

Chip, I know when you buy a new boat, you want it to be perfect, but when I bought my 2000 X, I also had a leak. I took it back to the Dealer and he repaired it. I never had a problem after that. Having owned three Mac water ballast boats, I know the boats are solid, Macgregor will take care of your problem. It may only require some more cloth and resin and it will be like new. I have a Hunter 26 WB now, and I have read where a few folks have had small leaks in their tanks. This is nothing to get too concerned about, the tank has little pressure in it , so it does not take much to fix. Some Hunter owners even put inspection ports in there ballast tank, so the can drop a pump in to pump out the water. This is the only way to drain the water from the ballast tank in the water. I know things like this can be irritating, but I am sure that it can be repaired and Macgregor will do whats right.

Good Luck,
Ken

[opie]

To any factory person monitoring this thread: add 1 more person (me) who 'was' seriously considering a 26M. The only response to the leaks I would have respected was that "a factory rep will be flying out to see the problem the next day." (Factory missed that chance, but tomorrow will have to do, or maybe Monday or Tuesday because of the T-Day holiday this week.) I am sure there are many more of us lurking out here pondering a boat purchase, and the resolution of this problem is of vital interest to us.

[Catigale]

The only response to the leaks I would have respected was that "a factory rep will be flying out to see the problem the next day."

Respectfully disagree. Its fun to thump the bible, but the reason I could afford to get into sailing is the price point that Macgregor supports - cant expect Mercedes service at Hyundai pricing.

The correct way for this to be resolved is through the dealer relationship - and this will take time. It was good to read the recent post that someone else had problems which were resolved by dealer to their satisfaction.

[Catigale]

I pooched the quote box on the last post, sorry....only the first sentence was a quote, the rest was mine.

[Dominic]

I too am considering the purchase of a 26m in 2005, have been a 'lurker' on this site for some time and have gleaned a lot of information and good advice about the Macgregor marque.

I am posting from Europe (Ireland) where a 26M works out at about twice the price of that in the USA. Interestingly, if I were to export a 26 from the USA on a personal basis to save a few bucks, Macgregor will not honour their warranty conditions. Under European Union Law and changes made by the EU dealer etc, when the boat arrives in England the trailer is scrapped, wiring harness replaced, an owners manual supplied, extra safety labelling put up, the vessel is classified under a Recreational Craft Directive (RCD) of a 'C'and so on.

I was interested in the wording of a USA warranty versus a EU warranty and would like to compare the two. As far as I understand it, under consumer law in the EU this vessel could be rejected for a replacement or refund under a number of laws:

'Period of rejection' - If the item is found defective within a certain period after purchase (days/weeks/months - depends on item and this includes all items or pieces of kit on the boat radio, fenders anchor etc. such defects must be rectified within a reasonable time period or the item replaced.

'Unfit for purpose' - a boat shipping water due to a design/manufacture fault would be deemed unfit for its intended purpose and a refund could be sought. In certain cases, damages can be sought for loss or inconvenience e.g. if you had booked a holiday and had to hire another boat due to defects found in the original boat, added travel expenses and so on...

RCD category 'C' - The RCD system is a mess but clearly if the vessel as sold had such defects it would indicate it is not suitable to be sold under the Cat 'C' band...the implications for any manufacturer are immense.

'Duty of care' - the dealer supplying the product has a duty to ensure the product he/she is supplying is safe.

I am sure there are many more aspects of these laws I have not touched on. I understand there are equivalent tenets in American law it is just you have to dig a bit deeper (and pay a bit more!) to find them.

Remember, these are consumer laws designed to protect the consumer and are not seen as adversarial in nature. They were brought into effect for just such scenarios as this - more a form of check and balance on quality control.

Incidently, FWIW, if I were to personally import a Macgregor from the USA, I would still have the protection from EU laws and a lot of American manufactures are adopting the 'CE' mark even for their own markets. Everyone in the EU is now taught their rights and has a high expectancy of them being fufilled. Once a right had been broken it should be only in a rare case that legal redress be sought - consumer organisations are set up to help (for free) in these cases. I would expect if I were to purchase such a vessel in 2005 I would expect a full refund or repair pronto...

I understand that in some states there are moves to enhance consumer protection along these lines and the sooner the better...

I would do an air pressure test on the tank as well as a water test. Close the air valve and place a bung with an air valve on the water intake. Pressurise the tank to about 2/3psi and check the pressure 24 hours later. A drop in pressure would indicate a leak. If the inlet and outlet are properly sealed then the leak would have to be in the tank. This would be another piece of evidence supporting your case. Everyone else could check their tanks this way too especially if there is a mysterious water seep from somewhere.

The Royal Yachting Association (RYA.com) have pro-forma contracts for buyers of new and used craft. The idea is the buyer asks the seller to abide by the contract details. This acts as a safeguard for both the buyer and seller and is worth a read. Be wary of a seller who does not want to know about it.

I like Macgregor boats but more importantly I like the 'spirit' of Macgregor boats and the people who sail them. I intend to purchase one in 2005 so I hope your case has a satisfactory outcome.....

P.S, contact your local political rep and get those consumer laws beffed up the 'feel good' factor for both consumer and manufacturer cannot be underestimated.

[kmclemore]

I am posting from Europe (Ireland) where a 26M works out at about twice the price of that in the USA. ......

....I understand that in some states there are moves to enhance consumer protection along these lines and the sooner the better...

.... P.S, contact your local political rep and get those consumer laws beffed up the 'feel good' factor for both consumer and manufacturer cannot be underestimated.

OK, so everyone on this board by now knows I have a peculiar (insane?) attachment to England & Ireland, so please don't take this with any offense as I am clearly an Anglophile.

However, as much as I loved living there, and found the people to be the most welcoming and kind that I've come across in many countries of travel, I must say that I found virtually every sort of goods to be ridiculously over-priced. And one of the key reasons is just this sort of legislation... as you noted in your first line, you are paying dearly for "the 'feel good' factor" - almost double the price! We here in America are starting to pay dearly too... but it's not coming as much from consumer law as it is from litigation and insurance costs. So many products I could have bought years ago have either had their prices driven through the roof or have been pulled from the marketplace simply because of a single lawsuit.... and more often than not it has been because end-user has used the product in an inappropriate manner... but no matter, we all must pay.

Please, oh, please, save me from added legislation! The government is not my mommy, and I don't need protecting from every bump and cut.