Shortening the Forestay on a 26X

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

Well, I'll put this poll in the right category...hope it doesn't get overlooked by not being in the main forum.

Just trying to get a feel for whether people who have shortened the stock forestay on a 26X (maybe applies to a 26M also) feel that it was a worthwhile mod (significantly reduced weather helm)...or, if raising the CB some works just as well or better than the shortened forestay.

Appreciate any comments also.

TIA

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

Dimitri - If you are going to shorten the forestay anyway, and even if you're not, consider installing a Johnson Marine Quick-Release Shroud Lever (p. 1015 in West Marine cat.) on the bottom of your forestay. It sure simplifies getting the forestay tight. I even put one on my 26X with RF; had to have the sail re-cut so I had room for it.

Seems to me it would be easier to add the quick release at the bottom and then raise the forestay connection at the top. A few inches higher really shouldn't have much effect and you can still use the sail, furler and forestay as it is. One new hole and all the problems are solved.

Duane brings up a good point regarding the poll. If you have raised your forestay connection up higher by making a new hole, please count that as a shortened forestay in the poll. Also, if you could comment about whether you had to recut any sails or RF sleeves, that would be useful too.

So far, if I'm in windy conditions, I pull my CB up about half way to reduce weatherhelm...but I have no way of knowing what difference it would make if the mast were straighter up.

[Jeff S]

Reduced length of forestay 3" with a new forestay. Changed the top to a Marine eye and increased forestay size to 5/32". This reduced weather helm to a manageable amount- previously the weather helm would sometimes overpower the rudders. Now it is much more manageable. No sail cut required. Pins easily with the M style mast raising setup on the X.

Jeff S

[Frank C]

Jeff's comment was so perfect, I just HAD to copy it! (Only differs by one inch).

"Reduced length of forestay 4" with a new forestay. Changed the top to a Marine eye and increased forestay size to 5/32" (also shortened the CDI foil, just slightly). This reduced weather helm to a manageable amount- previously the weather helm would sometimes overpower the rudders. Now it is much more manageable. No sail cut required. "

Pinning the forestay still requires gonzo tension from the stock raising system used with a cabintop winch, even though the backstay is slack. I did retension the shrouds with a Loos gauge. I plan to switch to the M-style mast raiser because it eases midway stops and adjustments. In very strong winds, adjusting the centerboard angle provides valuable added control. I'd recommend making the change, at latest, when standard maintenance demands a new forestay.

The downside to this change (theoretically) is that decreasing the rake "increases" the pointing angle. Cannot find the citation to that "fact" but I know, for absolute certainty, that I did read it somewhere on a sailing website. If this bothers you, make only a 2-inch change instead of 4 inches. Then, in combo with tuning the shrouds & turnbuckle length, you can have best of both worlds.


P.S. at present time, only 3 endorsements are hardly compelling. But after my change, I'd not do differently.

[Jack O'Brien]

I haven't sailed enough to know if I have too much weather helm or not. I often use only half CB i.e. it is down to a 45 degree angle, and have never had the rudders overpowered even when doing 5.8 knots with jenny and main on a beam reach.

Got the rigging adjusted with a Loos Gauge with the backstay fully extended and slight tension on it.

The problem I have is the CB will not drop further unless I head into the wind, to take the pressure off it, and rock the boat. Maybe someday I'll put some lead in the bottom.

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

I typically sail a half down CB like that on an average reach. I put it down further to beat into the wind depending on the strength of the wind. All the way down to point well in light wind. If the wind is heavy, it has to come up a bit to avoid too much weather helm. (weather helm is the tendency for the boat to "round up" or start tacking into the wind when you get puffs that heel the boat over - requiring ruddering away from the wind) If I want maximum speed when running down wind, I pull the board all the way up.

Even if you aren't overpowering the rudders, you are still slowing down the boat through additional drag by keeping the rudders deflected. Of course, a little weather helm is good for safety because it helps keep the boat from getting knocked down. If my boat starts getting pushed over to 35-40 degrees, it starts overpowering the rudders (and time to reef anyway;). I suppose the boat was tuned like this intentionally to keep people from capsizing.

To make changes to the board, you have to be passing through the wind either on a tack or a gybe. Once you are sailing, there is too much lateral pressure on the board for it to move. But I never have to rock the boat unless there is some fouling starting to grow on the board...shouldn't be a problem if you only trailer the boat.

[Jeff S]

The problem I had when using less CB to reduce weather helm in moderate wind was during tacking. The bow would have trouble coming through the tack and would sometimes not make it all, forcing me to do a 270 degree turn off the wind. Once I reduced the forestay length and dropped the CB all the way this problem went away completely.

I don't have the numbers on pointing differences that Frank has, but if pointing is reduced it hasn't been significant enough for me to notice. Of course I am still a jib only guy- maybe I will notice more when I get a Genny (before spring I hope!).

As Frank mentioned about cutting the CDI Luff Foil- I did the same to accomodate the shorter forestay. My forestay was coming apart which is why I went ahead with the mod. One of my shroud lines sprung a wire so this winter I plan to redo all my shrouds and put on turnbuckles. For those interested in rigging supplies Layline in Raleigh, NC has great prices and I think they can do the swaging if you give them the specs eye to eye. I would recommend switching to a marine eye on top of the forestay instead of the loop/thimble setup- especially if going to an increased 5/32" setup as the loop setup will interfere with the RF. There was some past discussion on the added stress a larger diameter wire has on the forestay tang. 1/8' is the stock size.

Jeff S

[Murv Barry]

I wanted my mast to be straight up and down so rather than shorten my forestay, I raised the hound 3 to 4". The lower shrouds were lengthened to their max and the uppers req'd adding a ss strap at the base. Added a small block & tackle to the backstay.

For the buck, I haven't seen a better buy out there. It is the best sailing powerboat and the fastest powered sailboat but it can't do both super well and there's lots of room for mods (or improvements as some might say). Mac builds a conservative, well built boat and since most new owners are first-time boat owners, the forgiving nature of the boat is a good thing.

Personally, I didn't like the boat rounding up. I want it to hang in there till I let out the main. Larger rudders, a solid centerboard and a vertical mast has helped the boat's performance.

I am not a big racer but I believe that racing makes for a better sailor. My boat is as loaded as the next guys but I don't take one thing off of the boat when I race. I probably should lighten up but again, I don't take it that seriously. Of course we all know that anytime two boats are near each other there is a race.

I mentioned earlier that I increased my rudders by 30% and that both sides of the rudder is curved like an airplane wing. Now, why wouldn't it be better if the outer sides of each rudder were shaped and the inner sides were flat? (Maybe it's the other way around) If there is very much wind and you are heeled over, the lower rudder is doing most of the work. Now I think of it - after I just made new ones. What are the pros and cons? Good sailing, Murv

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

Great comments!

Regarding the mast rake affecting pointing, I did this google search and read the first several pages. Interestingly enough, it seemed to be a mixed opinion from a wide variety of sources. Some said increased rake helped pointing and others said it hurt it. I think North sails is saying that the boat points better with less rake. I need to get one of you guys with a straight mast to come race me to see who can point better

I'm tending to believe North...reason being that I have a raked mast and it can't possibly be any worse than it is now! In all fairness, I do sail mostly with a genny and I suppose I could lead the sheets a little bit further inboard to make it more like the regular jib. Actually, the boat doesn't point that poorly, it just goes dog slow when it is that far into the wind. Come to think about my windsurfing days, seems like in a lighter wind, you need less rake (even raked forward of 90 degrees to the water) to go faster upwind but as the wind increases, you have to rake the mast backwards more to maintain the same heading.

For those who have cut the luff foil, do you find there is still enough room to hoist a 150 genny without it interferring with anything?

It is starting to sound better to raise the hound, or maybe better yet, adding a whole new one so you can keep the jib halyard block on the lower hound so it won't interfere with the top of the furler. I guess you would want the shrouds attached to the upper hound so that they properly counteract the forestay. I wonder if it puts more stress on the mast than it was designed for by raising the hound.

Btw, using an autopilot to steer against weather helm is kinda cool if it isn't too gusty. If its real gusty, the AP starts overcorrecting a bit too much and getting into trouble. I've also had the problem of not being able to tack through the wind if the CB is not down enough but I think that is more prone to happen if you are sailing with main only.

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

Lest no one misunderstand my previous post, I do know that all sailboats go faster on a reach than a beat , my point was that it seems the 26X is disproportionately slower on a beat than other boats.

I just thought of a good experiment I can do with my large family next time we are all out on a sail. If I use the same heading (and sail trim) and then move everyone back and forth between the cockpit and Vberth, you would think it would change the mast rake a couple degrees. Then I could test the speed at various points of sail and see if the boat performs differently.

[Frank C]

1) Come to think about my windsurfing days, seems like in a lighter wind, you need less rake (even raked forward of 90 degrees to the water) to go faster upwind but as the wind increases, you have to rake the mast backwards more to maintain the same heading.

2) For those who have cut the luff foil, do you find there is still enough room to hoist a 150 genny without it interferring with anything?

3) It is starting to sound better to raise the hound, or maybe better yet, adding a whole new one so you can keep the jib halyard block on the lower hound so it won't interfere with the top of the furler. However, the point's also valid that shortenting these lengths may compound the interference by the idle jib halyard. I reattached my halyard block higher, using the mast thru-bolt for the hound.

4) I guess you would want the shrouds attached to the upper hound so that they properly counteract the forestay. I wonder if it puts more stress on the mast than it was designed for by raising the hound.

Dimitri,
Observations on each point above:
1) actually, sounds like your windsurfing experience confirms my recollection, since you can maintain the higher point (by raking aft) even when stronger winds are pushing you off.

2) YOU DEFINITELY don't want to have the sail's luff too long. I measured very, very carefully to determine by exactly how much (A) the foil exceeded the luff length, and by how much (B) the old forestay exceeded the foil's length. Those measurements were basis of my choice to shorten by 4 inches. I don't remember the specifics, but I do recall that it COULD HAVE been shortened by 6 or 7 inches.

2A) I fought this problem in my office conference room, the only place I could stretch out the sail. I later learned it's easier to do this while everything is still rigged, up the mast. After releasing the CDI internal halyard, you can just slide the sail up-and-down along the foil to gauge the foil's surplus length.

2B) Now remove the sail from the forestay and unpin the CDI foil. Now you can slide the foil up-and-down the forestay for same purpose. (Much better approach than trying to measure this stuff with a tape on the conference room floor.)

3) You won't want to keep two hounds since the lower hound would destroy your sail when tacking.

4) Everytime that I've heard someone has raised the hound, they do not move the upper shroud attachments. I suppose you COULD lengthen the two upper shrouds to reach the new, upper hound, but you'd be buying two shrouds in place of just one shorter forestay. You'd also drill the mast for no good reason . . .

Hope that gives food fer thought!

[craiglaforce]

I voted yes even though I did not shorten the forestay. (always seem to need another voting option). There was enough adjustment room on the turnbuckle to let me correct the weather helm problem. Only about 2 inches of adjustment was needed. Not sure why everyone seems to be cutting the forestay shorter or cutting another hole in the mast. Points well now and no excess weather helm. Centerboard usually about 1/2 to 2/3 of the way down.

[Jeff S]

Dmitri,

I don't have a Genny, but I have the jib and I think the luff length is the same. I have several excess inches to work with on the CDI FF2 after cutting the foil as well.

I definitely don't think it points better with less rake. I don't have much weather helm at all until the boat gets to about 25+ heel angle and even then it is controllable with the rudders. I can even handle gusts pretty well when I see them coming. The gusts tend to push the boat to a greater heel then the weather helm kicks in- but asa long as I lead that with some rudder I can control it easily. I haven't been past about 35 degrees heel, but I can keep that with my current setup. (of course reefing is in order at that point, but heeling is fun with the right crew )

I have had the tacking problem with less than full CB with the jib until I shortened. I actually have the turnbuckles screwed on pretty far as well. If I had to do it over again I would cut the forestay 4" like Frank which would allow me to tighten the turnbuckle more if I needed. I was just worried about being able to get the forestay pinned. Now with the M style mast raiser I could go another inch shorter and still be able to pin it.

Jeff S

[craiglaforce]

Why are people saying that they have trouble pinning the forestay with the X mast raising system? You have a 4:1 advantage with the pulleys and when the tail is led to the winch which gives another 6:1 (my guess) advantage this gives an overall 24:1 mechanical advantage (a little less once friction is taken into account. If you pull 10 lbs on the winch handle this gives say 200 lbs of pull on the forestay (allowing for 20% friction losses). Given that the forestay tension should be around 300 lbs (for talking purposes), this should be a piece of cake (15 lbs). There is enough mechanical advantage there to easily break something if you pull hard on the winch.

I also prefer being able to stand in the cockpit and guide the mast onto the support when lowering it. Makes it very easy to do single handed.

The only thing I don't like is the time needed to untangle and install all that line and pulley rope mess.

[Jack O'Brien]

I have a nice tight rig and can pin the forestay with good tension on the line led to the winch. A long pin and doing it from the ground helps. I also release the backstay's pelican hook.

I avoid the raising line tangle by taking all the slack out from between the blocks, so they are close together, and flaking and tying the line before putting it away. I also have a captive-pin twisted shackle on each block to connect them to the gin pole and deck padeye.