Shortening the Forestay on a 26X

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

Ok, I'm starting to get more confused again. Frank, if you are saying you can maintain a higher point in stronger winds with more aft rake, then you are clearly sacrificing pointing for less weather helm since SF Bay is a windy place usually. It looks like there is definitely a significance to the light wind versus stronger wind situation. And looking at this tuning guide for c scows pretty much confirms the opinion that more rake is needed to point better in higher winds but less rake is needed to point better in lower winds. Maybe this also implies that Jeff is more of a heavier wind sailor too.

I guess in a perfect world, you might have a more dynamic adjustment of mast rake like some of these racing boats have (pretty hard with a furler though - and aft attached shrouds). But still, are you going to have to adjust it on each point of sail as well as the changing wind conditions? The other thing that is confusing about the windsurfing analogy is that you have to rake your mast back more in increasing winds for reaches as well as upwind beats. This also causes the board to lift up and adds speed because of that.

Then of course, Craig joins in and describes pretty much what I have done too...tightened the turnbuckle up all the way on the stock forestay. But I used to have my shrouds tighter and that caused more rake. Now that I think that my shrouds are too loose again, its made me think about shortening the forestay...again.

I guess I'll try the boat pitch experiment I mentioned above and then report back. I suppose another possibility is having two different length forestays. But I'd rather find one good tune and stick with it...too much of a hassle to always be changing it around IMO. (pragmatical sailor approach again)

Thanks for all the replies, its an interesting (and controversial) discussion.

[Jeff S]

Why are people saying that they have trouble pinning the forestay with the X mast raising system? You have a 4:1 advantage with the pulleys and when the tail is led to the winch which gives another 6:1 (my guess) advantage this gives an overall 24:1 mechanical advantage (a little less once friction is taken into account. If you pull 10 lbs on the winch handle this gives say 200 lbs of pull on the forestay (allowing for 20% friction losses). Given that the forestay tension should be around 300 lbs (for talking purposes), this should be a piece of cake (15 lbs). There is enough mechanical advantage there to easily break something if you pull hard on the winch.

I also prefer being able to stand in the cockpit and guide the mast onto the support when lowering it. Makes it very easy to do single handed.

The only thing I don't like is the time needed to untangle and install all that line and pulley rope mess.

I don't know why it is easier for me with the M setup but it is- I converted the X mast raiser to the M style. It is also easier than having to go back and forth to pin the forestay. Raising with the RF is easier, and lowering onto the crutch is pretty easy too- just guide it on from the gin pole position using either the line to the mast bail or the mast itself. The gin pole winch seems easier than the boat's winch as far as effort as well (not sure about the mech adv. of the winch-just a noticeable observation) and as you mentioned the lines are much more manageable. Last time I sailed with the pole left in place with no problems- it took me seconds to connect the snap shackle to the deck attachment to setup the raising system.

I did not mean to imply that you can't reduce your forestay length with another type of mast raising setup. I reduced my forestay length before I converted the mast raiser and had no more problem- just had to have the mast raising system pretty tight and a few times I would have to go back and tighten it a bit more, with the M setup I can pin the forestay easily from the deck and if I have to get more tension on the mast I just stand up and crank a few more clicks on the winch. I also feel the winch with the locking mechanism is more secure than cleating the rope on the old style mast raiser (although you can cleat the line too with the standard X system), and no more lineovers with the M style.

What I did mean to imply is that shortening the forestay makes the pinning process a tad more difficult (more tension required). Having the M style mast raiser makes the whole mast raising process easier and has made it easier for me to pin the forestay with either length.

Jeff S

[Frank C]

Ok, I'm starting to get more confused again. Frank, if you are saying you can maintain a higher point in stronger winds with more aft rake, then you are clearly sacrificing pointing for less weather helm since SF Bay is a windy place usually . . .

Weather helm on SF Bay is crippling ... no choice but to sacrifice some pointing ability.

[norbert]

i added a 25 gallons water tank under the v berth, and the mast rake was ok and the weather helm problem solved.

[normo]

Had my first real sail on the 26X today. We were in a "cruising boat" race.
-Winds were 17-22mph with higher gusts.
-Sailed with full main and jib.
-The course was two reaching legs.
-The as received rig tuning included a pronounced mast rake.

During strong gusts the weather helm was unacceptable; the mainsail forces would easily override full rudder and cause the boat to round up severely if the main trimmer didn't release the sheet quickly enough. The lack of feel in the wheel masks the problem until full rudder is reached and the boat then is out of control. This is not a safe situation, particularly for inexperienced sailors. Fortunately I had an experienced crew member handling the main and we quickly determined how to keep the boat on its feet and avoid roundups. Actually we turned in a respectable performance based upon a generous 275 PHRF assignment. One Catalina 27 skipper will surely scrub his bottom before the next outing.

Based upon this one sail I am definitely going to take the rake out of the mast. Hopefully this will reduce weather helm to a manageable level.

The Catalina 22 One Design Class makes setting mast rake easy. Racers have found that a forestay length should be 27' 2", plus or minus an inch or two, pin to pin works best. The rest of the rig tuning is done after this forestay length is set. It would seem that there should be a similar "factory" measurement for Macs. Granted some adjustments may be needed for big vs. little engines but I suspect they would fall within the plus or minus. One thing for sure, whoever set up my boat did it wrong.

[Chip Hindes]

If you're sailing in 17-22 mph winds with full mains'l, I believe you're overcanvassed. A Mac needs to be reefed considerably earlier than most other boats, and you can't use other boats as an indication of when you should reef. Your "experieinced" crew member may have actually been a hindrance in this case.

You may still have excessive mast rake, but IMO you haven't given it a fair test yet.

[Moe]

the mainsail forces would easily override full rudder and cause the boat to round up severely if the main trimmer didn't release the sheet quickly enough...This is not a safe situation, particularly for inexperienced sailors.

Normo, I don't understand this comment. Could you explain? IMHO, rounding up is much safer than knocking down, if my inexperience causies me to misjudge the wind and leave the main unreefed in greater than 15 knot winds, as I've seen recommended here. I see rounding up into the wind as a safety feature, and a wake-up call to reef while in irons. Am I wrong about that?

Reefing not only moves the center of effort forward, reducing weather helm, but from what I read here, keeps the boat flatter, which makes it faster. I'm also thinking that doing sail slugs and reefing line(s) to the cockpit would have safety benefits if one waited too late to reef.

One thing for sure, whoever set up my boat did it wrong.

Are you saying that because your turnbuckle isn't all the way tight? Perhaps your rigger considered "doing it right" to include making the forestay reasonably possible to pin and/or weather helm as being a safety feature.

I've read here that if you tighten the turnbuckle fully, and raise the mast with the backstay disconnected to make it easier to pin the forestay, then the backstay won't reach to reconnect. Would Duane's [url=hhttp://www.macgregorsailors.com/cgi-bin/modtra ... record=424]Simple Backstay Adjuster[/url] solve that problem? (note: Duane's mod text says the upper block is a Harken 225 (single with becket) and the lower block is a Harken 245, but the 245 also has a becket. Looking at his picture, I believe that should be a Harken 244 fiddle block with v-jam, but no becket).

I welcome comments on these issues.
--
Moe

[craiglaforce]

A little weather helm is a good thing in case you fall off the boat, but if you are constantly losing control of course and rounding up, it is too much. I have mine set so even with strong winds I can steer with a little finger. It is also faster this way since the rudders act as a brake if turned very far.

Plus if you still have the standard mainsail, the single ultra deep reef point is a huge reduction in sail area.

Being out of control and slow is not a good thing. A balanced rig is a joy to sail, and a bad weather helm is a major pain and could be dangerous if you lose directional control near a hazard. I've only had a couple of knockdowns, and didn't miss the weather helm a bit. The boat still rounds up in a knockdown, but in 22 mph winds with full main, it still sails well and under full control. But now I have a new mainsail that I had made with 2 reef points, heavier construction, minimal roach and flatter cut. So it handles more wind before needing a reef, and when I do reef the performance is more adjustable with the 2nd shallow reef point.

Hope this helps some.

And by the way, the backstay has very little to do with effort to pin the forestay. It attaches higher on the mast and the mast bends easily under the force of the mast raising system. forward mast travel is limited by the upper shrouds.

[Moe]

...bad weather helm is a major pain and could be dangerous if you lose directional control near a hazard.

Good point, Craig. Thanks.

I've only had a couple of knockdowns, and didn't miss the weather helm a bit.

That's probably a couple too many for the wife, if not me

Hope this helps some.

And by the way, the backstay has very little to do with effort to pin the forestay. It attaches higher on the mast and the mast bends easily under the force of the mast raising system. forward mast travel is limited by the upper shrouds.

This does help. Thanks again!
--
Moe

[normo]

moe: I agree with all of craiglaforte's explanation and comments.

When I tried to position the mast vertical I ran out of adjustment on the shroud turnbuckles. I suspect the forestay will have to be shortened as well when I remove the mast rake.

My backstay was also too short so it is difficult to insert the pin at the stern after the mast was raised. An adjustable backstay will eliminate this problem but that is not the reason to install one. When tightened in high wind, an adjustable backstay will reduce heeling force by bending the mast thereby flattening the main. The experts say this action will also slightly depower the headsail by increasing forestay tension which reduces forestay sag.

For a days outing with friends in windy conditions, reduced sail makes sense. Nevertheless I believe a monohull sailboat in the Mac size range should be able to carry a full main and small jib comfortably in 17mph wind and be manageable, although not necessarily comfortable, in winds speeds in the mid 20s. Most everyone gets caught in rapidly increasing wind conditions or strong gusts from time to time and they surely expect the boat to behave itself while they sort out what to do.

We have a couple of windy days coming up so I plan to take her out and check out the windward performance. Then I will start work on getting the mast vertical and a few other small projects.

[Frank C]

Norm,
By ordering a new forestay four inches shorter, I adjusted my mast rake forward to 88 degrees. This made the backstay too short, but no problem since I was planning to split it anyhow. This also lifted all four shrouds up to their last couple of adjuster holes - no more room at the inn! If I wanted the mast further erect, I'd change shroud hardware.

This definitely makes the boat more manageable in higher winds, but even with mast at 90 degrees, you'll never carry full main and jib in 22 knot winds. With a 12:1 rigid vang helping to flatten the half-reefed main, and full standard jib, my boat manages a brisk (& thrilling) 7 knots upwind in steady winds of 18 to 20 knots. A traveler would be the only other control to enhance handling. Check that ... some rudder profiling might help too.

Don't judge the Mac's ability to carry sail by any other boat - it's unlike any other sailboat, which I suppose you'll discover shortly.