Bad performance beating

[magnetic]

The nominal "break" point between describing a boat as "Close Hauled" and "Beating" appears to be 45 degrees (I assume to the APPARENT wind, as I don't really think many of us would claim to be able to sail our Macs at 45 degrees to TRUE)

[K9Kampers]

I had been skipping this thread because the title made me think it was work related!

Looks like I have some catching up to do!

[ROAD Soldier]

Y'know, this has been a bunch of fun to follow!!

And if RS can't prove his point, then...we'll just have some awesome videos to watch!

Thanks, and cheers!

Sorry if that happens you most likely will not see the video because I will to busy crying to my mommy to post it. Now the difference between close-hauled and a beating on a Mac to me is once I can get 40 degrees or less it is beating. One of the pics above I show my pointer and the tangs in the back are set at 40 degrees.

[Highlander]

I beleive the Old Sailing Term for this is called

POUNDING SALT -----

J

[Highlander]

R/S said
Sorry if that happens you most likely will not see the video because I will to busy crying to my mommy to post it.
And I suppose the music playing to this vid will be "Cry Me a River " if no vid ! then I guess you'll be singing !

J

[Trouts Dream]

In all fairness comparing a typical limiting hull speed of a traditional sailboat hull design with a hybrid design like a Macgregor is a bit unfair. There is no doubt that a Macgregor can achieve more than theoretical hull speed calculation when under power and you would need a whole lot more power to get a Catalina of the same length to that speed under power. When someone can calculate the formula that applies to a Macgregor hybrid hull, then you will have something to stand on other than the quicksand currently underfoot.

[magnetic]

let me make this really, really simple.

If, when not under power, whether planing, surfing, levitating, using warp drive or "the Force", a Mac could significantly outperform other boats when beating to windward, people would talk about it

it can't and they don't. compared to a standard yacht, the Mac does not perform well to windward, and even the best racing monohulls are not at their fastest when closehauled

[Trouts Dream]

agreed...but will you also agree that with 2 headsails and the right conditiond Road Soldair can achieve his claims, even though another boat may have performed better in said conditions.

And just as a side note the Mac can have comparable speed on closehaul to other boats, just never as close to wind.

[vizwhiz]

Thanks magnetic! I understood that to get past a close haul would be "in irons", but I hadn't heard the term "beating" before. So that's somewhere between into the wind so much you're not able to move, and the relatively efficient sailing position of a close haul...sound like a good description?

[jschrade]

As the wind conditions change, so does the advantage.

It can be awful hard to move a heavy "yacht" in 5 knot winds without the iron genny. We have done quite a bit of light wind sailing and I tend to be one of the only sailboats out there in these conditions. I am impressed at how little wind it takes to move the 26M at a decent pace.

Highlander and Road Soldier have made some pretty significant modifications to their Macs that takes them well beyond the performance envelope of a stock Macgregor. Add the light weight of a Mac and given the upwind performance I have had, I wouldn't doubt Road Soldier for a minute.


Jim

let me make this really, really simple.

If, when not under power, whether planing, surfing, levitating, using warp drive or "the Force", a Mac could significantly outperform other boats when beating to windward, people would talk about it

it can't and they don't. compared to a standard yacht, the Mac does not perform well to windward, and even the best racing monohulls are not at their fastest when closehauled

[Highlander]

Andrew
I was actualy at one time thinking of installing a 2ft retractable fin in front of the dagger board under the V- berth for better pointing you see them on the racing boats in front of their canting keels looks like an dorsil fin only up-side down I know one of the reason's my boat is able to punch through the big swells is becuase she is heavily laiden so less subjected to being blown around by the wind thus I'm able to maintain a steady speed I know other's with their boats lightly loaded complain the boat will not punch through the swells and lose speed & their heading getting blown off coarse , I also think a winged weighted D/B would help signifantly with leeway

now that said nothing like constructive critisism to get the addenalin going , now just maybe if I could raise my eng. all the way outa the water , and had moved my jib & genny cars ahead on the genny track
I'll keep ya posted

This has been very entertaining & educational but some proticall to be learned here on gentlemanly sailor's behavior !!
Some times when Beene & I are out sailing together he'll beat me on certain points of sail he should not be ! but he doe's becuase he is a better sailor than I am but I have yet to beat him up yet , though drilling a few hole in the bottom of his hull has pasted through my mind !!

J

[K9Kampers]

John - try reducing the number of opposing factors by the both of you wearing kilts!

[ROAD Soldier]

Ok gentlemen I managed to get out on the water today the 26 Nov 2010. In my little Poquoson Bay the wind was about 12 gusting to 15MPH not the 20MPH I was expecting. I did get within less than 40% and managed 6.3 MPH on average. To video with my cell phone because that all I had and I was by myself. I also took video of a reach where I was doing 6.8 on average. Like I said wind did not get to 20MPH here for me. So I went over to York River wind diffidently doing more than 20MPH but also created big waves and the tide was going out so I had to go even slower for safety reasons but still managed to point on a beat and do 4.4MPH. No here where my low technology experience comes into play. I don't know how to post these low quality videos and the sound works on my phone but not when I transfer them to the computer. So Monday I will get with one of my Soldiers that is very good at I/T stuff and see what he can do. Now today was the best day to reach 7MPH on a beat for this weekend so I will have to attempt another one in the future and hopefully with a partner with a video camera. However I still see about getting these videos posted because you can still see the engine up and the water wiping by.

[cbig]

ROAD soldier -
Be real interested if you could photo your cutter rig or storm sail and how the rigging is done. I have a 26d. I see where what you say could be useful. How is it in heavy seas? Out here we get low 1-3 ft seas and 5 knot winds or greater winds and 5-6 ft rollers occasionally +. Some of you guys' photos make us jealous of the 20 kt winds and essentially no real swells! When you come off a 6 ft roller at an oblique angle you may be fighting that with the rudder to stay on course, timing for the next 6-10 sec later.Curious if your storm sail helps the boat maintain course as the lower sail portion in the valley of the swells loses its wind temporarily then re catches, then loses...adjust rudder .. yada .. yada..
Thanks,
CB
(another ex Army puke)

[vizwhiz]

mag-neeetiiicccc....ya can't go yet, you have to at least stay and watch RS's videos with us!

Okay, here's a look at one of the interesting points brought up by the "we don't really have all the right information" posts...I'm a mechanical engineer by education, and a really practical hands-on mechanically-inclined trouble-shooting field guy, just so you know I'm not just wishing I understood physics... I say that because I don't want you to tire of my explanation if I'm saying things you already know...bear with me and read on a minute...

The issue I see that nobody has been able to adequately address, and which you (magnetic) have not adequately acknowledged is that the Mac hull on the M is NOT a displacement hull AT ALL. It is technically a hybid, but it IS a planing hull, and one with a tight V, a flatter bottom, etc. It DOES NOT act like the other displacement hulls on regular sailboats, which NEVER ride up out of the water at all.

The Mac hull, any planing hull for that matter, will BY PHYSICS rise in the water when moving due to the forces generated by any movement through the water - the design/shape is such that the movement of water under the hull produces an upward force. The concept of planing itself is an exchange, so-to-speak, where the force needed to keep the boat afloat comes fully from the movement of the boat through the water, no longer by the displacement of water by the hull.

In a displacement hull, it is exactly the opposite, the forces required to keep the boat afloat (buoyancy to us) come solely from the displacement of the boat in the water, regardless of the speed of the boat through the water. It is NOT designed to produce lift as the boat moves through the water - it is designed to displace the water around the hull efficiently.

In the Mac, you're going to get SOME lifting force as the boat moves - if the planing speed for a Mac is...what is the planing speed, 15 kts? If so, then 6 or 7 kts is nearly half the planing speed, and you will have some lift being generated...the boat is not displacing as much as it was sitting still...period. IT HAS TO do that or it will NEVER reach plane! By rising out of the water, you lower friction, you decrease the amount of displacement of water required... That said, it is possible that what you could call the "theoretical hull speed" of a Mac actually INCREASES with speed...it's hull-displacement-limiting factors get lower and lower as it goes faster thus allowing for a higher theo-hull-speed...and if, as you say, the beating speed is some percentage of the theoretical hull speed, then it IS possible that a Mac underway could actually reach a higher-than-expected speed when beating (or sailing any other way for that matter).

Am I saying it has been done? No...I'm merely pointing out that there are..."issues"...that COULD theoretically counter the physics of displacement hull design upon which the other information is based...I say let's give RS a chance to prove himself.

And Highlander, I'd like to buy a license to cutter-ize my S when I get it.