Boat Capacity

[vizwhiz]

Okay, potential newb question - or worse.

I remember seeing on most new boats a big placard that states the maximum number of passengers the boat may hold, and the maximum weight (exclusive, of course - whichever you reach first). I do not remember seeing anything like that anywhere on my 95 Mac 26S - nor do I remember reading it anywhere in the literature.

Aside from the obvious one-to-one ratio of life jackets and all that other stuff, is there a limit to the passenger capacity on our Mac?
I am not so concerned about weight and sailing quality and all of that*** - I'm only concerned about the encounter with law enforcement when they count heads and tell me I'm over capacity.

Thanks.


***This is primarily about taking friends that have kids and how many actual bodies I'm allowed to have on board at any time.

[vizwhiz]

Did I overlook something super-obvious?

(or is this one of those "don't ask, don't tell" things?)

[kmclemore]

Viz, it's been discussed at length many times in this forum, so perhaps that's why there was not an immediate response.

You can find the US regulations on safe loading here:

http://www.uscgboating.org/regulations/ ... partj.aspx

...and on flotation here:

http://www.uscgboating.org/regulations/ ... rt1_h.aspx

MacGregor has specified the following in their owner's manual:

WHEN THE BALLAST TANK IS FULL:
- NO MORE THAN 6 PERSONS, 960 POUNDS.

WHEN THE BALLAST TANK IS EMPTY:
- NO MORE THAN 4 PERSON, OR 640 POUNDS.
- CREW WEIGHT CENTERED FROM SIDE TO SIDE.
- ALL SAILS REMOVED, ENGINE POWER ONLY.
- NO ONE ON THE CABIN TOP OR FORDECK.
- WAVES LESS THAN 1 FOOT.
-OPERATE WHERE WATER IS WARM AND
RESCUE IS LIKELY.
- NEVER OPERATE THE BOAT WITH A PARTIALLY
FILLED TANK.

WHEN POWERING OVER 6 MILES PER HOUR:
- RUDDERS AND DAGGERBOARD FULL UP.
- SAILS REMOVED.
- NO ONE ON THE CABIN TOP OR FOREDECK.

A copy of the safety placard may be found on page 27 of the owner's manual:

http://www.macgregor26.com/instruction_ ... CTIONS.pdf

[yukonbob]

Pretty sure it's six. Either way I'm pretty sure over six and you become a charter in the eyes of the uscg? I'd double check though that might be one hull of a ticket

[vizwhiz]

Thanks Ken, I searched, but wasn't coming up with this kind of info...going to have to try searching for things differently.

I was looking in the manual for the 26S and it doesn't have that info - is it possible that it's new info added to later model manuals that wasn't required to be posted before? (EDIT - after looking at the different manuals, it isn't in the older manuals, only the newer ones.)

It appears that I'll have to become acquainted with the USCG website as well...probably missing a lot of info that's right under my nose.

Thanks to all!

[Hamin' X]

It is my understanding that capacity plates are only required on boats <20 ft. Different standards apply to boats 20ft and over, depending upon the standard to which the boat is built (NMMA, ABYC, etc.). These standards are merely guidelines and hold no legal standing. However, if you have an incident while loaded beyond the suggestion of the manufacturer, it will be used to sway a jury against you in a civil case.

Some manufactures do put a capacity plate on there boats of 20ft and over and in that case, you can be held in violation by the USCG and other enforcement authorities, if you exceed that limit.

This is my understanding only and is not intended to be legal advice. Due diligence is required by each individual boat owner.

~Rich

[DaveB]

Rich,
I agree with what you have stated and would add that by adding additional HP to Outboard above the Manifacture limit's will only help the Manifacture if it comes to a law problem.
One must understand that increaseing HP engine and over loading the boat above Manifactures specifications rely on the Boat owner only.
Dave

It is my understanding that capacity plates are only required on boats <20 ft. Different standards apply to boats 20ft and over, depending upon the standard to which the boat is built (NMMA, ABYC, etc.). These standards are merely guidelines and hold no legal standing. However, if you have an incident while loaded beyond the suggestion of the manufacturer, it will be used to sway a jury against you in a civil case.

Some manufactures do put a capacity plate on there boats of 20ft and over and in that case, you can be held in violation by the USCG and other enforcement authorities, if you exceed that limit.

This is my understanding only and is not intended to be legal advice. Due diligence is required by each individual boat owner.

~Rich

[Catigale]

I've done 8 up on ocean waters in good conditions, but 4 of them were 100# crew. Total crew weight was 880#

I split crew between cockpit and below 4+4

Never had handling or stability issues. Ballast in of course.

[vizwhiz]

Thanks again for more responses...am learning fast.
I remembered you mentioning that you'd had up to 7 passengers aboard before Cat... We have family members and some friends that have small children, and with four adults and three kids, that starts out at 7 people, albeit some of them are smaller than others...

I was reading on the Coast Guard website that Ken pointed me to and it does indicate that boat manufacturers usually have to give a rating for safe occupancy and weight based on a number of factors, most of which have to do with boat stability based on the weight in the boat and where it's located. (And I think that the placard is only required on boats 20ft and less, as someone pointed out.)

The discussion points also seem to indicate that the actual decision is up to the boat owner, that this is not a regulation thing, just a "certification" that the boat manufacturer has to provide that says what they certify as safe...not necessarily what the boat can actually hold safely. I can definitely see that if there becomes an issue where liability is at stake, but it sounds like good judgment is going to be a factor. (Obviously, the need to comply with PFD's and other requirements doesn't go away.)

I'll see if I can find some good judgment... and thanks again for all the help!

[rick_26S]

I read somewhere that the Coasties use this formula. length x width divided by 15. A Mac 26S like yours would be 26 x 8 = 208 divided by 15 = 13.8 people to be legal. That sounds like a lot of people for a boat this size, so it's up to you to decide. I have a 94 26S and I've had a max of 10 adults aboard. The boat sailed OK that way, but I wouldn't leave protected waters like that. Six or seven is easily done on my boat.

[mastreb]

I've sailed in calm, open ocean with eleven people, five adults and six kids with a total weight of probably 1620# in passengers. This was also with about a 500# gear load for a total of around 2100# We had kids mostly below decks, one adult forward, two on stern rail seats, and the rest in the cockpit. Most gear was aft but there was a 200# or so in the v-berth forward. We never operate without a full ballast so that was a given.

The rule for everyone was to go forward through the cabin and out the hatch rather than topside because it didn't want someone to panic in a heel, grab a leeward sidestay, and pull the boat over. That's my general rule for any guest who doesn't know how to sail.

The boat handled just fine, heeled normally, and motored normally although I only took it up to 13 knots once (that was WOT with this load). Most motoring was done at 7 knots. I couldn't get much above 4 knots under sail with a light beam reach. This load was not submerging the transom well and we didn't take on any bilge water at all. I felt perfectly comfortable with it the entire trip.

It was all elbows though--too many people for my liking for a cockpit this size, and without the stern rail seats it would definitely have been too many.

Matt

[mastreb]

Also, keep in mind that the fatal Great Lakes capsize was eleven people, no ballast, dagger-board down, and a power take-off while turning. Two children trapped in the cabin died. So you can definitely capsize this boat if you want to be stupid.

Also, a 35' sailboat capsized in San Diego harbor yesterday evening, killing two with 9 or 10 people aboard. I have a hard time reconciling "35' sailboat" with the upside-down hull I see in this photo however--there's no keel and it does not appear to be 35' long to me.

Matt

[mastreb]

Sorry--Link to capsize:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2 ... html?lanow

[hart]

The Associated Press is reporting it as a 26 foot boat with a retractable keel. I'd love to know what kind.

Edited to add: Apparently it was a Mac: http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011 ... -accident/

The victims were aboard the 26-foot MacGregor sailboat “Nessie,” which was registered in New Jersey and is owned by an Indiana-based nonprofit, when it flipped over shortly after 5 p.m.

What a tragic story.

[mastreb]

Other online stories indicate that it was a rental boat, and that it was an outing funded by a non-profit that provides sailing trips to the disabled.

MacGregor's are not suitable for rental purposes. Without the inherent stability of a full keel, there's too much to know or possibly forget about for people who don't understand their safe use.

It's pretty easy to tell what happened from the story: Everyone thrown overboard = nobody in the cabin. All weight was above deck. Renters = Ballast empty, boat empty of gear, and dagger board likely not down. It does not appear that the sails were hoisted, or the boat would have knocked down rather than fully capsizing, which means they were motoring, likely below 5 knots as the area they capsized in is a no wake zone.

With this kind of loading, it would only take one person to lean out with a mast stay to pull the boat over.

Tragic indeed.