Total newbie questions about running rigging/sails....

[StarSpun]

Hey everyone:-)

So we've discovered that we need new lines....and we've chosen Cajun Ropes in Canada to get them from....
I am a bit confused though, about the running rigging as well as sail placement....

Ok, so our Mac came with the main, a 135% genoa, and a jib. The jib is still in the bag, we have no idea how to put it up, haha!
We started off using the genoa, and then worked our way to using the main. Can I tell you how much we love roller furlings? I would love to get the main on one....has anyone done that? Who did you go through, what kind of modifications must be done? How much was it?
Edit: Was just reading about the furling systems for the main....guess it's not the best idea:-/ Oh well!

Anyway....we have ordered new custom sails from Judy....very excited about them. A new main, 150% Genoa, and a 100% jib and a assym. spinnaker. I told Cajun this, and they said the 150% will require longer lines by 5-10 feet, and so that's what we will do in preparation for the new sails.

My silly newb question is this:

Our Genoa is on a roller, and we like the rollers! Can the jib be put on the same one (do you swap them?). Or do you have to get a separate roller? Do I need different lines for each, and if I was to get the jib on the roller, would this change the specs for the lines? Does this make ANY sense? Ha ha!

Anyway....we have been learning so much in the last while. We managed to get going 5.8 MPH under sail....it was exhilarating! The boat didn't heel too much (I hate when it goes over a certain angle....eeeek!). And we did that thing where the genoa is out one way and the main is out the other....forget what that is called. We we cruising then! Too fun!!!! We are hooked!

Thanks so much in advance:-)
Cat

[Obelix]

Hello Cat,

Genua lines are normally longer then the lines for the jib, since the Genua sheets are run outside of the shrouds to the back and then return to the winches. Jib sheets run inside the shrouds directly to the winches.
We also started using a 150 Genua and later changed to a Jib, by replacing the Genua with the Jib on the same furler. We use the old genua sheets on the Jib, we just have more line left to coil.

Keep up the fun

Obelix

[StarSpun]

Hello Cat,

Genua lines are normally longer then the lines for the jib, since the Genua sheets are run outside of the shrouds to the back and then return to the winches. Jib sheets run inside the shrouds directly to the winches.
We also started using a 150 Genua and later changed to a Jib, by replacing the Genua with the Jib on the same furler. We use the old genua sheets on the Jib, we just have more line left to coil.

Keep up the fun

Obelix

Thanks for the explanation! Very cool, good to know you can use the same furler. Wish I could choose from either the jib or Genoa on a whim, but oh well!
So now I am wondering, if I should just get the sheets for the Genoa, and deal with long lines. I saw a cute mod on here that used little canvas bags to hold the extra line.

Why did you decide to use the jib instead if you don't mind me asking?

Now I have been given the choice of shackles from Cajun, which I know nothing about. Read about the soft shackles, but it seems from reading around that they are hard to get undone under pressure so I will likely go with the standard ones. Is it wise to replace the factory ones, or are they decent? I was also told by the man who installed the stern seats that we'd need some kind of shackle to hold the boom off to the side over the dodger. I forget the kind he mentioned now....any ideas anyone?

Thanks again:-)

[Obelix]

Hi Cat,

We sail on San Francisco Bay and the predominant winds during most of the year are >20 in the afternoons. My admiral, like many, doesn't like heeling more then 20 degrees so we used the Genua mostly in a partly furled stage rendering the sail less effective. The Jib being smaller in size can be flown longer before reducing it too.

I guess, you could call us "nice weather sailors" .

Obelix

[StarSpun]

Hi Cat,

We sail on San Francisco Bay and the predominant winds during most of the year are >20 in the afternoons. My admiral, like many, doesn't like heeling more then 20 degrees so we used the Genua mostly in a partly furled stage rendering the sail less effective. The Jib being smaller in size can be flown longer before reducing it too.

I guess, you could call us "nice weather sailors" .

Obelix

I got ya;-) Yeah, still getting used to the heeling thing....I think that if I had a pro onboard to demonstrate how much it could heel....I'd feel better. I just need to have it happen a few times, and see that nothing bad happens. Of course, I guess anything could happen, but I think it's the idea of experiencing it and not feeling as though the boat is going to capsize at any moment. A bit of heel is super fun I find....! We are also fair weather sailors....and the winds vary on Lake Ontario. How long did it take you to change the sails on the furler?

Thanks again for your help!

[Tomfoolery]

I've found the OEM genoa to be too much sail for any decent breeze, and the boat sails much better with the standard jib. I rather doubt I'll ever use the genoa again. For light air, where the genoa is the better choice, I can use the asymmetric spinnaker instead. Changing headsails with that particular furler is a PITA, so I avoid it. I've added a mast hound and spin. halyard about 18" above the jib halyard, as well as a downhaul with rigging back to the cockpit, and with a chutescoop for the spinnaker, it's a piece of cake to fly most of the time.

As you've probably already figured out, the 135% is really not suited for the . It's too big to use the jib fairleads, and too small to be sheeted in tight using the genoa blocks. Sounds like Judy got you fixed up with the right sails, though.

I don't know what shackles you're considering, or rather, for what purpose, but I wouldn't put a shackle on the end of a jib, genoa, or spinnaker sheet. The way they flail around when coming about, a shackle would beat up everthing around it. A headboard shackle, sure (for the halyard), but not on the sheets. Learn to tie a bowline, especially one-handed, and you'll be in fine shape.

[StarSpun]

I've found the OEM genoa to be too much sail for any decent breeze, and the boat sails much better with the standard jib. I rather doubt I'll ever use the genoa again. For light air, where the genoa is the better choice, I can use the asymmetric spinnaker instead. Changing headsails with that particular furler is a PITA, so I avoid it. I've added a mast hound and spin. halyard about 18" above the jib halyard, as well as a downhaul with rigging back to the cockpit, and with a chutescoop for the spinnaker, it's a piece of cake to fly most of the time.

As you've probably already figured out, the 135% is really not suited for the . It's too big to use the jib fairleads, and too small to be sheeted in tight using the genoa blocks. Sounds like Judy got you fixed up with the right sails, though.

I don't know what shackles you're considering, or rather, for what purpose, but I wouldn't put a shackle on the end of a jib, genoa, or spinnaker sheet. The way they flail around when coming about, a shackle would beat up everthing around it. A headboard shackle, sure (for the halyard), but not on the sheets. Learn to tie a bowline, especially one-handed, and you'll be in fine shape.

Interesting!

Yes the OEM Genoa keeps getting caught on the side stays unless there is enough wind to blow it across, which means I'd want something less than a 135% anyway. Ha ha! I was reading online that the 150% was better, but I never thought of using the spinnaker instead. Hrmmm! So I think what we will do is have the jib put in the furler. If we do that and for some reason want to use the Genoa, is there a way to do it easily? I have no idea how to get a sail up the 'regular way'. Ha ha! Judy also is putting the spinnaker on a kind of furler. It's not CDI, it's a brand that starts with an F, I forget the name right now.

Ok, I am going to have to look up mast hound and spin! Do you have any pics of your set up? We are very interested in seeing other peoples modded set ups!

As for the shackles, it's for the Main and Jib halyards, at least that's what was on the quote from Cajun.
I am trying to learn all the terms....there is so much to learn....my head feels like it's going to burst!

[Obelix]

Hi Cat,
Changing the sails wasn't that bad, the furler-foil has a groove similar to the groove on the mast. You just loosen the old sail, slide it out and slide the new sail in. All in all, if I remember correctly it was about one hour.

Obelix

[Tomfoolery]

Yeah, still getting used to the heeling thing....I think that if I had a pro onboard to demonstrate how much it could heel....I'd feel better. I just need to have it happen a few times, and see that nothing bad happens. Of course, I guess anything could happen, but I think it's the idea of experiencing it and not feeling as though the boat is going to capsize at any moment. A bit of heel is super fun I find....!

You know how when someone is driving, and you feel that they're going too fast and/or following too closely to the car in front, and it's uncomfortable? But when you are driving, and you're following just as close, and driving just as fast, that it doesn't feel that way at all?

I'd suggest you take charge of the sheets while sailing for a while, using the winch if you have to, and actively control the heel by depowering the sails when it gets too exciting. After a short while, you'll find yourself allowing more and more heel, while feeling in control the whole time. Or take the helm, and sail close to the wind, right on the edge, controlling the heel by rounding up into the wind a little to partially stall the sail(s) when things get too exciting.

Having that sense of control will alleviate the anxiety of the boat heeling steeply with you just hanging on for dear life. Before long, you will be the one putting the rail into the water. Not the fastest way to sail, of course, but you'll become desensitized to the feeling of not being in control, even when you're not in control (just taking it all in).

[Obelix]

tkanzler,

Good advice how to get used to heeling

Obelix

[StarSpun]

Hi Cat,
Changing the sails wasn't that bad, the furler-foil has a groove similar to the groove on the mast. You just loosen the old sail, slide it out and slide the new sail in. All in all, if I remember correctly it was about one hour.

Obelix

Ahhhh ok that's not too bad:-)

[StarSpun]

Yeah, still getting used to the heeling thing....I think that if I had a pro onboard to demonstrate how much it could heel....I'd feel better. I just need to have it happen a few times, and see that nothing bad happens. Of course, I guess anything could happen, but I think it's the idea of experiencing it and not feeling as though the boat is going to capsize at any moment. A bit of heel is super fun I find....!

You know how when someone is driving, and you feel that they're going too fast and/or following too closely to the car in front, and it's uncomfortable? But when you are driving, and you're following just as close, and driving just as fast, that it doesn't feel that way at all?

I'd suggest you take charge of the sheets while sailing for a while, using the winch if you have to, and actively control the heel by depowering the sails when it gets too exciting. After a short while, you'll find yourself allowing more and more heel, while feeling in control the whole time. Or take the helm, and sail close to the wind, right on the edge, controlling the heel by rounding up into the wind a little to partially stall the sail(s) when things get too exciting.

Having that sense of control will alleviate the anxiety of the boat heeling steeply with you just hanging on for dear life. Before long, you will be the one putting the rail into the water. Not the fastest way to sail, of course, but you'll become desensitized to the feeling of not being in control, even when you're not in control (just taking it all in).

This is an awesome idea! I'm so afraid of doing it though....
I think it is a control issue....especially since I am such a control freak;-)
I just need to feel more comfortable with the sails and know EXACTLY what I am doing. I get the wind, I understand what to do, but I panic real easily! And then all the knowledge goes right out the window....ha ha!

Bryan on the other hand, he is a dare devil....he kiteboards and doesn't care about being thrashed around. When the MAC heels right over, he has no problem, he actually laughs. Yeah, I'm not laughing when everything in the cabin is flying all about, and I'm too scared to go inside in fear I will be caught in there when it capsizes!



Thanks for the advice though. I'm going to take this REAL slow. I'm also going to find a way to make sure the microwave doesn't fly from one side of the boat to the other!

[Judy B]

Now I have been given the choice of shackles from Cajun, which I know nothing about. Read about the soft shackles, but it seems from reading around that they are hard to get undone under pressure so I will likely go with the standard ones. Is it wise to replace the factory ones, or are they decent?

Hi Cat,

Shackles for which lines?

A halyard shackle is a good idea for the mainsail halyard either spliced on or tied with a halyard knot. Using a knot rather than a splice has the benefit of preventing jamming at the top, whereas the benefit of a spliced-on halyard shackle is for higher performance due to less wind drag.



For the genoa and jib sheets, I really don't recommend shackles. They can hurt you when the wind starts flogging the genoa around. And they bang into the mast and scratch it. The traditional way to attach jib or genoa sheets is with a very useful knot called a bowline. You attach the port and the starboard sheets with this knot.

If you're going to be a sailor, there are a few essential knots you need to learn. Knots are your friend on a boat.

* Halyard knot - see page below. Use this to attach the halyard to a halyard shackle.

* Bowline - for tying on sheets and lots of other things. This knot is asymmetric. It has a left and right handed version - aka an S vs Z . Practice tying it two ways, so one is the mirror image of the other. I'll try to find a picture explaining which way to tie them so the knot doesn't get caught on the shrouds when you tack.

* Oysterman stopper knot - tied at the bitter-end (cockpit end) of most lines to keep them from pulling out of the hardware. (Some folks use a figure0of-eight knot, but it can come undone by itself too easily.) For safety's sake, we don't tie stopper knots in the end of spinnaker sheets.

* Cleat hitch (a clove hitch done around a horn cleat on your deck or the dock)
* Round turn and two half-hitch - used for tying on fenders (aka bumpers to landlubbers), or a tow line (around the base of the mast on a deck stepped mast, not to deck cleats). This simple knot can be untied even when there is a great deal of strain on the line.



Gotta go now - hope this helps.
Fair winds,
Judy B

[Russ]

Most furlers will allow you to "reef" the genoa. That's what we do with our 150. Partially roll it in when winds are too strong and tie the furler off. Our winds are generally too light, or too strong. The 150 gives us flexibility to use a big sail or smaller one.

Also you need to learn how to reef the main.

Shackles.. nope for reasons mentioned above.
Just do this. Use the same lines for both sails and just deal with the extra in the cockpit.


The spinnaker is a downwind sail only. If you want other points of sail (like into the wind) it won't work.

Make sure your running lines are NOT nylon. Nylon is not good for this as it stretches.

Yes, the 150 takes more to pull around the mast when coming about, but the wind will eventually pull it around. Practice.
You will love the new sails, although keep in mind brand new sails are very stiff.

As for the healing, the boat can't flip over. It's like a big "weeble", they wobble but won't fall down. There is 1500 pounds of weight in the bottom of the boat that will always bring it back up. The water ballasted Mac is a tender boat at first. The initial heal is quick and fast, but it stiffens up once it reaches a certain point. One day a wind will catch you and you will learn how far it will go over before it won't go any further. All the wind that pulls the boat over spills off the sails and it won't go any further.

One more pet peeve of mine. When you roll the headsail in, let the jib sheets wrap a couple of times around the sail to hold it. Too often I've seen a "tail" of the sail left out waiting for a big wind to pull it open.

Enjoy

[Judy B]

Judy also is putting the spinnaker on a kind of furler. It's not CDI, it's a brand that starts with an F, I forget the name right now.
...<snipped>>... As for the shackles, it's for the Main and Jib halyards, at least that's what was on the quote from Cajun.
I am trying to learn all the terms....there is so much to learn....my head feels like it's going to burst!

Here's a link to the Asymm spinnaker furler that I've chosen for you. I ended up getting the Selden model rather than the Facnor model. The Selden model works better, IMO, and a little less expensive. They just started importing them to the USA in May, so they're in short supply still, but I managed to snag two of them -- one for you and one for me. They've been available in Europe for a while, but not the USA. They're really nice and Selden engineering and customer support is superb.

http://www.judybsails.com/v/vspfiles/kn ... ldenGX.pdf

You don't need a halyard for a CDI furler. The jib halyard is "built in". All you need is a 30-foot messenger line, made of inexpensive rope.

Can you tell us what line Cajun is recommending for the main halyard? It should be less stretchy than what you use for jib and genoa sheets. Something equivalent to "Sta-set X" is a good halyard line for cruisers - adequately low stretch but reasonable priced for the performance you get.

And what are they recommending for the sheets? For jib and genoa sheets, the two most important features are that it doesn't "hockle" and that it's easy to hold onto. A hockle is the loop that forms when the line gets twisted; hockles prevent sheets from running thought blocks smoothly and safely.

For sheets: A single or double braid dacron of 5/16" or 3/8" (7 or 8 mm) can be used for both the jib and the genoa. Usually, 1.3 times the length of the boat is the right length for using with both sails. Some thing like "Sta-Set" would be good because it doesn't hockle much, or single-braid "regatta braid" , which is 100% hockle-free would be fine for a cruiser.

For the asymm spinn, get light weight 1/4" (6mm) lines. And it's worth paying for lightweight lines that don't hold water. Such as Endura or flightline by New England ropes. It's got a spun polypolylene core, with a braided polyester cover. Polyester covers are good for UV and abrasion resistance. length should be about 2x the length of the boat.

In summary:
Halyard for mainsail - cruiser's low stretch. no need to buy super-low stretch and expensive line like racers do.
Sheets, moderate stretch is fine for jibs. Most important for cruisers is that it doesn't "hockle" when it gets twisted going on and off the winches..
Spin sheets - low weight is important on those days when you're sailing in really light winds. Non-water absorbing is a big plus for keeping the weight down.

Fair winds,
Judy