Standing Rigging Tension?

[DaveB]

Victor,
I didn't say anything about loose rigging while under way.
I guess what works for me is great, what works for you is also great from your view point.
I was only giving advice to you and others of shorting Launch time without gin pole.
I still like turnbuckles on stays and makes so easy to adjust if need be while underway in heavy wind.
Information and Knowledge is what this forum is about and if others learn anything between debates thats good.
Fair Winds,
Dave

I've been sailing on and off for 37 years so I understand sailboats also.

I used to fly hang gliders that required rigging for flying and not assembly.

Why would you want your rigging loose for any reason?

I've checked the tension on the water with our Loose gauge and did not notice any difference. I have not checked it with ballast, but I will just out of curiosity.

The hull and mast will flex beating to the windward, that is why the rigging needs to be properly tensioned. We've unfortunately been in a couple of Nor’easters and some overly high wind situations since tuning. No slack in the rigging and a great feel in a boat that does not try to throw us overboard.

It's worth the extra 10 mins each way for the entire day or following several days we are on the water. I would still use the mast raising system just for safety reasons with my kids helping out.

Not trying to get the last word in, just don't understand nor agree with rigging a boat to assemble instead of rigging a boat to sail.

Victor

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

I find setup and tear down of the gin pole is zero, because I never remove it.

On an X it is easy to simply fold it up against the front of the mast when fully rigged. No need to remove it or the baby stays.



Likewise when the mast is down and stored on the bow pulpit the pole is left connected to the step and simply bungeed up below the mast.





The key to a quick setup is to leave everything possible in the place it ended up in when you lowered the mast. Don't take anything off, just come up with ways to secure things for the road.

When I roll my mast back to the step every line and connection needed to raise it is already in place ready to go. The halyard is cleated to the right length, the pole is fully hooked up, the raising line is already run to the winch and wound around it ready to start cranking.

I roll the mast to the step, put in the bolt, lift the pole to vertical and attach the halyard shackle. That's it, crank the winch and the mast is up. Once full up, give a couple extra cranks to over tension and pin the headstay. Release the winch and the rig is up at the proper tension. I'd never want to mess with tension out on the water. Turnbuckles are too fragile and will eventually be damaged by repeated mast raising's. That's why the factory didn't use them in the first place.

[sailfish02]

I intended to do this last year and never got around to it. If the boat is on the water, then the beam will be level, and the boat will also be level fore and aft, but can I still use the halyard as a plumb-line ? Should the mast be perfectly plumb when the boat is on the water to start measuring ? Perpendicular to the water ? I assume so if the plumb line is parallel to the mast.

I'm guessin' the dimensions given previously will still be accurate. last year I tighted my furled forestay all the way, and then just "faired in" the shrouds, but I still had a two inch bow in the mast

Need to get the guage. Thanks for the info.....this subject has been of interest for some time.

[delevi]

For next year, I'm considering replacing all standing rigging with Dynema line (not the forestay) and replace the chainplate adjusters with turnbuckles. For those of us who like the rigging tight (like me,) it can be quite a chore to pin the forestay. I only trailer a half dozen times per year so it isn't a huge deal. Rest of the time the boat is in the slip. However, it would be quite convenient to back off the shroud turnbuckles prior to rigging and crank them back down after the forestay is connected.

Leon

[DaveB]

Duane,
I have a MacM gin pole, the winch would stick out to far and tacking could jamb sheet lines.
Dave

I find setup and tear down of the gin pole is zero, because I never remove it.

On an X it is easy to simply fold it up against the front of the mast when fully rigged. No need to remove it or the baby stays.



Likewise when the mast is down and stored on the bow pulpit the pole is left connected to the step and simply bungeed up below the mast.





The key to a quick setup is to leave everything possible in the place it ended up in when you lowered the mast. Don't take anything off, just come up with ways to secure things for the road.

When I roll my mast back to the step every line and connection needed to raise it is already in place ready to go. The halyard is cleated to the right length, the pole is fully hooked up, the raising line is already run to the winch and wound around it ready to start cranking.

I roll the mast to the step, put in the bolt, lift the pole to vertical and attach the halyard shackle. That's it, crank the winch and the mast is up. Once full up, give a couple extra cranks to over tension and pin the headstay. Release the winch and the rig is up at the proper tension. I'd never want to mess with tension out on the water. Turnbuckles are too fragile and will eventually be damaged by repeated mast raising's. That's why the factory didn't use them in the first place.

[c130king]

I don't think I would leave my mast raising pole in place on my boat. Lines could snag...but to me it is like sailing with your fenders hanging over the side. Just not quite "ship shape" if you know what I mean.

However, back to the topic of rigging tension. I adjusted my rigging back a couple years ago before I moved to the UK based on various threads I read on this subject. I used a Loos Gauge but I don't remember the numbers I used.

Sailed with that new tension for a few months and then moved overseas. However, after returning for the Jacksonville Macgregor Get-Together last year I noticed in several pics that my Genoa seemed to be slightly "saggy". So when I went home for Christmas Sailing in December I decided to tighten again. This time I just tightened one notch on all four stay adjusters but didn't measure any numbers using the Loos. The foresail was definitely tighter but I was still able to pin it by overtightening the mast raising gear and pulling down hard on the furler drum.

I could tell I had better tension. But Couldn't really tell a big difference in performance but maybe there was some...hard to tell.

Jim

[Terry]

I intended to do this last year and never got around to it. If the boat is on the water, then the beam will be level, and the boat will also be level fore and aft, but can I still use the halyard as a plumb-line ? Should the mast be perfectly plumb when the boat is on the water to start measuring ? Perpendicular to the water ? I assume so if the plumb line is parallel to the mast.
I highly doubt it and I would not do any adjustments on the water as the boat is never level fore & aft and it will change the second you step your weight into the cockpit.
I'm guessin' the dimensions given previously will still be accurate. last year I tighted my furled forestay all the way, and then just "faired in" the shrouds, but I still had a two inch bow in the mast

Need to get the guage. Thanks for the info.....this subject has been of interest for some time.

Definitely get the guage.
Do all the rig tuning on the hard while on the trailer.
Set the trailer level and boat level on land both fore & aft and abeam so that the boot stripe is parallel to the ground and use a 4' level to set the beam level.
Set the mast almost perpendicular to the ground and bootstripe then set your rake using the halyard as a plumbline. Once you have your rake put a cotter pin in the forestay turnbuckle to keep it at that setting. Do not change it or loosen the turnbuckle to pin the forestay, just keep that setting permanent. Now do your shrouds using the Loos guage to 10-15% breaking point and attempt to get some mast bend in the process, you won't get much. You will have to use the mast raising system to keep loosening and tightening the mast until you get the right tensioning of the shrouds. You should not try to set the forestay again after the shrouds as the forestay was already set and cotter pinned so that you could not play with it again.
My rationale for doing everything on land is because the boat can be levelled on land and will not change as you keep moving your weight around the boat. Once you get your boat back in the water it will change leveling every time you add gear, provisions and crew, it never stays the same. I did mine in the driveway and it worked out just fine, I have little or no weather helm. Once your rig is well tuned you will have to really crank on the mast raising winch to pin your forestay as it will be very tight, but it is what holds the rest of the rig tune in place. Don't muck with the forestay turnbuckle once you get it set with the rake, cotter pin it permanently, it is done first then the shrouds second.
Your boat will now sail more efficiently, I guarantee it. (Did I say that?)

[sailfish02]

Thanks Terry, My boat is in a slip and it's easy to work on the shrouds while standing on the dock and never getting on board. I'm still unclear if the mast is really "plumb" when starting the adjustment process or is it just sitting on the step untensioned. Am I looking for the plumb line (halyard) to just show the mast bend (bow) or is the mast really going to be plumb as measured with a free swinging "plumb bob."

When finished, will the mast have a forward straight "lean" or will it have a forward bow ?

Interesting about the bulkhead discussion and how without any internal stiffener, you can change the shape of the boat with shroud tightening.

[vkmaynard]

Tighten the forestay buckle all the way then start adjusting the tension. The mast will still have a little aft rake. You will end up with little forward bend in the mast as opposed to forward rake when you finish. There will be a radical reduction in the weather helm.

VIctor

[sailfish02]

Thanks Victor.... I like your simplified approach. I have studied this topic somewhat over the last couple of years and remembered an article that Frank turned me on to, by Bruce Whitmore. Bruce states that the rake is the angle in degrees to the water, not the boot stripe or a relative level on the trailer.

What makes this significant, is when you consider the 4 stroke 50 horse hanging on the transom. With my 300 # motor, the rake to stern is probably much worse than I thought. It just looks bad as I jump out of my car and look at the boat sitting on the water in the slip. Add a couple of sailors to the 300 # motor and we look like an overloaded ski boat trying to plane.

I have a friend that sails his Mac with a 2 horse outboard and the boat sails differently than mine with the big foot merc. I put about 250 # of lead under the V-berth and it makes a difference. I always noticed a better balance when I had someone sleeping on the v-berth while under sail.

It's not rocket science and after reading up on this subject, again, I'm eager to give it a go. To gain additional forward rake, I have seen guys on this site, simply drill another hole in the mast, move the hound up 8-12 inches, and add a turnbuckle. Do the shroud adjustment after that and you're in business. Not a bad idea, if you don't want to mess around with the furler and turnbuckle hidden inside.

Thank you all.....

[jschrade]

From the factory, the stays were a bit loose on my new . I tightened (tuned) them up to a low note as I have no Loos gauge. Took it out today in 9-15 knot winds and it sailed with much less heel and a little quicker.

Makes a big difference.

Jim

[seacatcapt]

I recontly bought a Loos PT-1 tension gauge and adjusted the shrouds on my . The lowers were very loose before the adjustment. Now the uppers are at 300 lbs. and the lowers at 220 lbs. I found that as I tightened the tension further, connecting the furling jib became very difficult. So while the shrouds could be set with more tension, this is a good improvement on sailing/rig behavior and a good comprise on tension on the shrouds versus tension with the Admiral when setting up the boat.

-Randy

[J1234]

Hello to all,

I have found that this works pretty good, for me anyway.
Follow the whole procedure to get the mast where it should be with all buckles hand tight. Then, and in increments starting inboard and working outboard, with the back stays last if you have roller furling:

Lowers, 15% of Breaking
Uppers, 20% of Breaking
Lowers, Fore/Aft, 20% of Breaking
Forestay, 15% of Breaking
Back Stay 10% of Breaking

You can then fine tune if you really nitpick and want it to perfection.

[Newell]

Buy the best Loos gauge (PT1) for 5/32" wire from Online Marine for $88 delivered: http://www.onlinemarine.com/cgi-local/S ... 1180680787. It is more accurate and clamps on the wire, hands free.

Found nothing at this address. 88$ sounds good but can't find.

[BOAT]

I went to West Marine here in town for a loos guage and the guy said they were out and when he looked it up in the catalog the price was 89 bucks. The West Marine guy said that was too much and that i should be paying around 70 bucks for a loos guage. We agreed that I would do an internet search and if I could not find one we would just order the West Marine one and he said he would try to scratch it or somthing so he could get the price where it belongs. (He races big Beneteau so he's pretty hard core) He said do NOT use the big 200 dollar one on our boats because they are not accurate under 500 pounds. He said the cheaper one is more accurate on lightly rigged boats like ours.

As for 'boat', I guess the stays were right on the money right out of the factory door cuz in heavy santa ana wind I was able to point with two fingers on the helm and let go of the wheel for 2 or 3 seconds at a time without loosing course. If the swells were not so big I could have left my hands off the helm even longer. No weather helm at all and all rudders balanced perfectly (I did have the motor disconnected from the helm.)

The stays are very very tight on the sides and someone here suggested I guage them because they thought they may be too tight. In the real heavy wind I can see the forestay bow slightly so I suspect the stays are not too tight but I don't like to ignore advice from you guys so i am gonna get a loos guage and check it anyways.