2 mishaps I had that caused damage My Fault??

[BOAT]

I had TWO mishaps Saturday:

FIRST – We put out at 8AM and played around in the ocean past the three mile barrier until noon and then headed back to the harbor. We entered the harbor at 1 PM and docked at one of our favorite watering holes: The Jolly Roger.
Here is boat at the Jolly Roger dock:



So after many beers and nachos we untie and pull out – I drifted backwards after releasing the lines and was worried about drifting into the boats at my rear, so I gave the motor a little blast and we moved forward briskly. I was heading now towards two boats on the dock in front of me – a big cabin cruiser that just pulled in from Dana Point and a tiny bow rider. I quickly pushed the throttle back full reverse and the boat KEPT GOING FORWARD!! The motor sounded funny but there was no time for me to look under my seat to see what the hull happened and I managed to steer between the two boats and bump the dock instead. My wife was really mad and said I had too many beers. I figured she was right and we just quietly motored on out of the area.

SECOND – We were gently pulling the boat onto the trailer at the launch ramp preparing to go home when the boat just stopped – it was only half way over the trailer and just stopped. Then it occurred to me I forgot to raise the dagger board. It was not a hard bump, and we were gently pulling the boat onto the trailer with dock lines so I thought nothing of it. We dropped the mast and trailered the 2 miles back home.

So today I’m cleaning the salt off the boat and I remove the dagger board and look at what I see!



I’m thinking there is NO WAY I did that from a little “bump” on the trailer with a dock line! I mean look at this damage! First off, there is NO damage on the FRONT SIDE of the dagger board as would be expected from hitting something. All the damage was on the REAR of the dagger board and was being caused by the WELL!

[BOAT]

My wife has mentioned sometimes that she thinks a whale or fish has ‘bumped’ our dagger board but I just figured it’s turbulence in the water. So I’m thinking: Am I leaving the dagger board down too low??

So I ask you guys – look at this underwater clip. (I'm trying to get a good picture but it's hard) First thing you might notice is that we rarely tend the helm – we try to balance the sails so the boat steers itself with no input from the helm. For the most part it works well – but if the dagger board is raised even 2 feet the boat will not do that so I tend to keep it down all the way to the factory knot. Is that wrong?? Can you tell me if the dagger board is too low from this clip??

clip here

So as I’m contemplating the damage on the board I notice my port rudder is not as tight as the other one. I removed the rudder to get a closer look and sure enough, the bottom support bracket (I’m pointing to in the picture) is bent slightly down and allowing the shaft to move a tiny bit up and down. The starboard one is tight, no movement. So what up??

[url=http://s1325.photobucket.com/user/boat2 ... 5.jpg.html]

Then I see the chipped gel coat around the steering arm for the motor:




That’s when it hits me – the reason I rammed the dock at the Jolly Roger was because the motor CAME OUT OF THE WATER and forced the steering shaft sideways and forced the port rudder shaft downward. The feature on the motor that makes it release when you hit an obstacle under water must have engaged when I threw the motor in revers!??! The prop was just raising the motor and biting at air! I thought is sounded funny.

So, have any of you ever had the motor rise up on you in reverse?? Is there something I did wrong?

Now I need to bend the rudder shaft bracket back up and figure out how to repair and reinforce my dagger board.

[Divecoz]

Well a couple things..
1.That Dagger being All The way down may reduce effort at the helm, but it slows the boat down as well. It also causes you to not be ready, in the event of a sudden need for your attention.. IMHO this is not a great idea..
2. Dagger damage.. You say you were just pulling it in on with dock lines.. you are surprised at damage from such a gentle tug.. well that gentle tug had 3000 lbs or more of inertia behind it..
3.Yes the motor will for sure come up and out of the water when you hit hard reverse and the motor isn't locked.. Yet locking has its own issues..
Dumb azz Fishing Captains all over the world do the same thing " For Show / Drama" when the client hooks a big fish and many a time it tears the prop shaft right out of the transmission and a few times as it did recently in Cabo.. The Dang Boat sinks.. water over the transom and now a 2" or better hole in the transom at the bilge.. Me, I would prefer the motor coming up .. Don't React... Respond..
4. Rudder support bracket damage.. Looks to me like you as well, backed into something.. again with 3000 + Lbs of inertia..
IMHO .. Stay at the Helm.. Go slow. Get the boards up once you get the sail down ..

[seahouse]

Sorry about your bad experiences.

Regarding reversing: not sure what motor and setup you have, but the motor should be in the locked down position whenever it is lowered to prevent the motor from lifting while backing up, as its own weight cannot be relied on to do this.

In the locked down position the motor will still kick up it it hits and obstruction (moving forward). If you look you will find a latch located somewhere near the pivot point of the motor. Unless you have power trim/tilt; then there is no need to lock the motor in the down position- the hydraulics maintain the down force when reversing.

If your DB has no less than 12” of contact with the DB trunk, then you haven't extended it beyond Macgregor- recommended guidelines. Works out to be a 5-foot extension beyond the hull, IIRC.

[Divecoz]

SEahorse : He is running ( and should put it in his avatar) a New 60 HP E-tec. I will assume it has PTT ?
My 2005 Merc 50 locks Up Only However my 1998 Johnson 200 LOCKS... up or down IIRC Both Have PTT

[Chinook]

Regarding damage to the dagger board, it may be that you scraped the launch ramp with it in the down position as you approached the boat trailer. As previously mentioned, the weight of the boat, once in motion, has a lot of inertia. Unlike the swing keel on my X, the M's dagger board has no give.

[Catigale]

The PTT should be holding a motor in this size in position under either forward or reverse thrust. If it isn't, don't use your boat until this is fixed. Reverse thrust is your only brake.

[Tomfoolery]

I had a problem with the remote on my Honda BF50 where the PTT button was on the outside of the handle, since it was mounted the way most are, which is backwards for a right-hand mount on the pedestal. It was far too easy to lean against the thumb button or squeeze it with my hand and bring the engine up without realizing it. Reverse doesn't work very well when the prop is near the surface, and I can't imagine it's very good for the water pump impeller. I reversed the control, putting the thumb button under my thumb, and it's never happened since.

But I don't know if your issue is in any way related. I wouldn't have thought an OB that size, with PTT, would be able to kick up when hitting something or with too much reverse, unless there's a relief valve in the PTT unit on the rod side of the cylinder, but what do I know.

[BOAT]

All very good points.

I don't much worry about hitting things out here in the Pacific Ocean. There is nothing to hit - no boats around and miles of nothing so - yeah - we do leave the helm at zero and the boat steers fine all on its own. If the heel angle exceeds 19 - 20 degrees the boat starts to turn up wind and that makes the heel go back to 10 to 12 degrees and that makes the boat turn away from the wind. Usually it just tracks a straight line as long as the wind holds us at about 15 or 16 degrees. Out here you're not trying to hold an exact course - the horizon is just a big blank nothing.

Unless you have power trim/tilt; then there is no need to lock the motor in the down position- the hydraulics maintain the down force when reversing.

That's what I thought. I do have hydraulic power trim / tilt - so I wonder what I did. I know the motor was all the way down - it's really strange.

I am assuming I have more than 12 inches in the well because all the damage is in the top 16 inches of the daggerboard:

The PTT should be holding a motor in this size in position under either forward or reverse thrust. If it isn't, don't use your boat until this is fixed. Reverse thrust is your only brake.

I think I will check that out. Based on what I hear here the motor should not be coming out of the water - I just wish I saw what it did - I guess I will need to go into the water and throw it into revers to see what happens.

Thanks guys.

[Chinook]

I have an additional comment on using reverse as a brake, which hasn't been mentioned here yet. It can be misleading to think of reverse thrust in the same way you think of brakes on a car. Reverse thrust is, at best, inherently inefficient and much less effective than forward thrust. I understand it has mostly to do with the design of the prop, which is primarily designed to most efficiently propel the boat forward. In reverse, you will go backwards, but not nearly as efficiently as going forward. Hull shape also comes into play, with a square transom vs a pointed bow. When maneuvering in tight places, such as in and around crowded marina docks, it's a potentially embarassing and damaging mistake to think that reverse and a big outboard can deal with all situations. If wind and/or current pushes the boat in an undesired direction, reverse has definite limitations in its ability to correct the problem. And simply giving it more reverst throttle may not be the solution. If you're drifting forward with wind or current, even at slow speed, a sudden shift into reverse combined with substantial engine power, will tend to cause the prop to cavitate in the water and, once that happens, it's no longer giving you effective propulsion. It can take you a surprisingly long time to check your momentum and regain proper control.

[BOAT]

Hmmm - Cavitation - You know guys - I have NO experience with power boats - been on sailboats always in my life. About this cavitation thing - what would it sound like? Is it possible that cavitation made the reverse not work? Then what about the rudder? I suspect the motor because of the chips around the motor push rod - would you not make the same assumption?

My first ever MAC guys so your all I got to figure this out.

[K9Kampers]

The correct term for what is being discussed here is ventilation, not cavitation... there is a difference. As the OP described, a panic situation + many beers + "quickly shifting to full reverse" = the prop ventilating - losing it's bite in the water, not coming out of the water.

Remove the panic & beers and quickly shift to full reverse... same thing will happen. More air than water around the prop. Multiple quick & short bursts in reverse have a better 'braking' effect than standing on it.

The other issues with the steering gear may be from a different incident.

Yes BOAT, prop ventilation could sound like the motor kicking up into the air.

[BOAT]

Maybe I should have poured the beers into the water there near the motor so it got better bite. It was from Oceanside Ale Works and it has a pretty good bite. (the Blonde Ale is superior to any Mexican beer I have ever had).

So it it's not the beers I think I need to try to replicate what I did so I know how to not do it again. As for the lower rudder shaft bracket holder being bent down slightly (we are talking like less than a 16th of an inch) I guess your right - it must have been a different time - I'm thinking the day I was coming into the harbor with 25 knot winds and a following sea and the motor got un-pinned from the BWY little trailer hitch thingy cuz we were getting knocked around left to right so bad I was unable to pin it onto the steering arm, (we were under sail). Maybe that did it - I dunno.

So what do I do about my dagger-board??? Is that gash gonna make trouble?? Should I repair it ?? Is there a sleeve or something I can put on it to protect it in the future so the well does not tear it apart? We knock around in pretty good swells over here - I have no choice - there is no where else to sail - I need that dagger-board to handle the forces of a good Pacific swell.

So the well tears up the dagger-board??? What's up with that?? How do I fix it? Help!

[K9Kampers]

A quick fix for the dagger board damage... Marine Tex epoxy putty.

[BOAT]

Captain Dog Camper you are a life saver - I just called Mike at West Marine here in Oceanside and he says he has the putty in white right there at the store.

Thanks GREATLY for that tip!