Has anyone switched from stay adjusters to turnbuckles?

Rick · Post by **Rick** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 6:28 am

After playing on my Mac last fall, my stepfather caught the sailing bug and purchased an older Catalina 22 over the winter. This past weekend, I helped him rig his boat to put in the marina. I was reminded how much more I like turnbuckles over the mast stay adjusters on my M.

Have any of you made this switch? What, if any, are the advantages of one setup over another? Obviously, the convenience of precisely adjusting stay tension with minimal effort makes me favor the TB. The stay adjusters offer limited tension "tweaking" and adjustment in the water would be a pain. Any thoughts? Since I have the super-fast blue hull, is this mod even necessary? (hehe)

Also, what tools would I need to complete this task, that I otherwise would not have at home? I have never worked with rigging before, any pointers?

By the way, Rudder Chaos is ready for spring. Changed the oil and flushed the motor yesterday. Honda BF50 purrs like a kitty. Installed a stereo, added curtains, and upgraded fresh water system in the past few weeks. Our family is excited about our first full season with her. Anyone here sail Thunderbird, Hefner or Texoma in Oklahoma?

Catigale · Post by **Catigale** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 6:45 am

Rick

the pitch from the factory is that turnbuckles are easier to damage than the vernier plates, and I believe that is true. If you twist them while rigging, they weaken, perhaps in a not-so-visible manner.

Ive found once I get my rig set up, I dont change the vernier plates all season, and I trailer about 6x a year, slip the rest.

Of course, I have the faster WHITE hull, so I can be sloppy....

macsailor · Post by **macsailor** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 7:31 am

I changed mine last yearWe keep ours in a slip,and of course the first time I rigged the boat, we promptly bent one turnbuckle. But I like it better. At least now I can adjust my tension as I see fit without having to keep slacking off the forstay to adjust the shrouds. I also made an adjustable back stay last year, and perhaps its just me, but I tink it has helped the overall perormance of the boat. Hope this helps........( three weks to launch in friendly Manitoba)........Jim

dclark · Post by **dclark** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 8:21 am

I changed mine and splurged for a Loos gauge. The advantage is I can easily and precisly tweak the tension. I never understood the factory comment on safety. I guess there could be some validity to it, but it sounded more like they cut cost and needed justification that sounded good.

Randy Smith · Post by **Randy Smith** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:14 am

Each to their own, but the macs I know of that had turnbuckles dropped their masts in the drink....Old Salts will know to take care of the tension, but most people will crank the rigging too tight.....I always understood the Mac to be designed to be rigged loose........

Randy

Andy26M · Post by **Andy26M** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:33 am

I know this is not scientific, but here's how I figure whether I have the shrouds tighter than the factory intended:

Once I have everything the way it looks good, can I still fasten the forestay using just my own strength and the mast-raising system? If not, then its' too tight - the factory never mentions any concept of using a come-along to pin the forestay

I have a roller-furled genoa, also, so this builds a tiny bit of leeway in - I could pin it a lot easier if the genny wasn't hanging on it.

If I remember correctly, this setting occured when the shrouds were at around 240 lbs. on the Loos gage.

- AndyS

macsailor · Post by **macsailor** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:15 am

I dont have mine too tight , even with the turnbuckles. BUt when the leward shroud is loose when your close hauled for example, its easy to adjust to snug it up. without completely taking things apart to tighten it. pull the pins, a few twists, replace the pins and go. Best to do this while tied up though

Don T · Post by **Don T** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:43 am

Macsailor:
Technically wouldn't you want to only take up half the slack? The windward shroud is letting the mast bend off to leeward. If you see your leeward shrouds slack you should tighten them at the dock where you can be sure everything is correct and even.

RandyMoon · Post by **RandyMoon** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:26 pm

So for those of you who have switched to turnbuckles, what size did you use? I have my stays adjusted to around 240# and agree that it is quite a process to go through with the stock adjusters.

mtc · Post by **mtc** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:51 am

Andy,

When you say that you can connect the forstay with only your own strength, are you using the raising system (essentially a comealong)? I wonder if my cracks near the chain plates are from the rigging being too tight, although I have the plates set to factor specs.

When connecting my forstay, I have to crank the raiser a tad to get the pin in. The shrouds aren't so tight that a tune can be played on them, but they're not sagging either. I've rigged tighter boats.

Michael

mtc · Post by **mtc** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:12 am

I've severely bent two of the four plates with one oversight raising the mast. As they're very maleable, they just bent back into shape, somethat. I'd agree with the TB exposure to bending, and honestly, the plates are much stronger than buckles IMO.

To prevent any future bending of the plates, I installed TB boots over them (the pvc tubes with the cute cap) and covered the shrouds with slip on white sheaths. It looks better, prevents the shrouds and plates from getting all over the place when the mast is being raised, and gives you a little more to grab.

No doubt, the additional wind resistance of the larger dia shrouds now negate any speed advantage of the blue hull.

Michael

Andy26M · Post by **Andy26M** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:29 am

Michael -

Yes, I'm using the Mac 26M mast raising system. With my shrouds the way I think they should be set, I have to crank the mast raiser pretty tight, then it is hard but not impossible to pin the forestay. As noted, that is with the Genoa furled on the forestay, which adds a good bit of weight.

- AndyS

norbert · Post by **norbert** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:15 am

Randy Smith wrote: ...most people will crank the rigging too tight.....I always understood the Mac to be designed to be rigged loose...

no!!! i disagree! most people have their rigg not tight enough. loose rigging allows shock loads which are much higher than the loads you can achieve by tuning. again, read bruce's article under the button at the left.

Tom Spohn · Post by **Tom Spohn** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:49 am

Norbert is right on!
It is not hard to adjust the tension with the BWY tool, and you don't need to disconnect the forestay to use it:

http://www.bwyachts.com/web%20catalog%2 ... /tools.htm

Bruce Whitmore's article on this board is a great source of info.

Also: http://www.bwyachts.com/tuning_1.htm

Happy sails

Randy Smith · Post by **Randy Smith** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:59 am

Norbert, let me clarify my thoughts. My rigging is taught, but not tight...meaning, I can play a little tune on the shrouds, but the notes are very flat!!!!
Seriously, I have known Mac sailors(some experienced) that changed to turnbuckles and by tightening too tight, they created more pressures than the rigging could handle.
You are right, the rigging should not be too loose, seen plenty of guys do that, but this is a light yacht and we don't need to be cranking serious pressures to the shrouds.
I am positive you don't, yet I would worry about the new sailor who thinks the Mac needs the same tuning as a 40 foot blue water boat....I will read the articles suggested......thanks...

Randy

MacGregorSailors.com

MacGregorSailors.com

Has anyone switched from stay adjusters to turnbuckles?

Has anyone switched from stay adjusters to turnbuckles?

crank it up

Non-scientific guage

Mast Raising System

Re: crank it up

Loose Goose