Two person M mast raising without winch pole?

[Flightfollowing]

I would rather leave behind the mast raising pole on a trip I'm going to take due to being in the way for storage, and not anticipating the need to raise or lower the mast until returning to the trailer. But, if I run into a bridge and need to drop and raise the mast while on the water, what is the best option? I have a roller furling Genoa, and will not be alone.
I see examples of people just pushing it up by hand and with jib halyard, is this possible with a furler?
I was considering more of an X method, using the jib halyard to the bow cleat or stanchion, then jib halyard to mast base and then to a winch, which would take over mast raising once a person manually pushed the mast up partway, is this feasible? I would bring and use the baby stays from the mast raising pole as well.
Another idea would be to use the boom itself as a mast raising pole in a pinch, by making a fixture to attach one end of the boom to the mast base, and then running the jib halyard mast raising line around the other end of the boom such that it can exit upward from the end of the boom once the mast is most of the way up. Anyone tried this?

Finally, how does on use advanced search using multiple words kept together, like "mast raising" to return only results which have "mast raising" and not just "mast" and "raising"?

[Russ]

You could simply leave the pole attached and strap it to the front of the mast like how Sumner does it.



Storing it under the aft berth is another option.

The pole isn't necessary to raise the mast, but I wouldn't want to do it without.

--Russ

[Hamin' X]

Best way to do the search is to use Google like this: "mast raising" site:macgregorsailors.com

~Rich

[Flightfollowing]

Thanks Russ and Rich for the info. Reading through Sumner's postings his gin pole does not have a winch, which would seem to make a big difference in storage on mast and especially tacking with a Genoa, I have actually ripped an old Genoa on a slightly protruding bolt from the mast raising ring on the mast, and I am sure the winch or gin pole would be worse if stored where the Genoa slides across. Do any M owners store their mast raising pole with winch in position on the mast, or just winchless X and S owners?
I forgot about the 4:1 block for the X version of the mast raising pole, which makes using the jib halyard concept more complicated.
If I don't get more suggestions, I will perhaps give the manual method a test this weekend, with the winch as a backup if I have an issue.

[Flightfollowing]

If that is too difficult, I'll just travel with the pole, I'd hate to be Sailing winchless

[Tomfoolery]

You certainly could run a line from the jib halyard to a bow cleat, but you have to be very careful about the angle of the mast and the resulting forces when there is no pole to open the angle up.

In the first shot, the MRS pole (X-style) keeps the halyard load down to about 250lb (based on 100 lb of mast and sail), and the MRS force to the deck attachment to 375 lb.

In the second, removing the pole and staying with the deck fitting puts thousands of pounds of force into the line, which is more than enough to rip the fitting out or break something else. And that doesn't count stretch, which flattens the angle even more, to where the mast will just fall anyway as the line nearly goes over center.

In the third, moving the halyard to a bow cleat (or both) helps, but it's still a lot of force, which is being (presumably) tailed by hand.



Moving it up to the bow rail helps again, but it's not made for that, and I'd be reluctant to use it for that purpose. Maybe if the line went over it, then down to the bow cleats, to negate some of the lifting force at the deck connections, but trying to raise the mast from the roller (X-boat roller, stabbed into the helm, so it already has some angle) without a pole to open the angle is going to be tough on the equipment.

Lastly, going back to the bow cleats, the angle where the halyard force is back to 250lb is (coincidentally) 45 degrees. Again, based on my assumption of 100lb of mast and rigging and sail. And the geometry of the X mast.



So the takeaway is if you're going to just use some line to help bring it up, you need to use brute force to hold the mast until it's high enough that the halyard and/or attachment points won't be overloaded if you have to let it take the load. The forces go up rapidly as the mast goes down due to both the greater radius of the mast CG from the hinge, and the decreasing angle between the halyard and the mast.

Which is why the gin pole is there in the first place.

[BOAT]

Tom,

What do your cad drawings and calculations show for the loads on the normal MRS system when attached to the factory bail where the baby stays are? I was always curious about that starting load where the mast just lifts the first inch off the stern crutch.

It seems to me that we put way more stress on the MRS when cranking it in to get the forestay attached than we ever do when just lifting the mast up? That gin pole and the bail attachment closer to the middle of the mast makes the whole thing a lot stronger as a lever machine, right?

[Russ]

Tom, your CAD engineering skills are impressive. Those numbers are very interesting.

[Flightfollowing]

Outstanding analysis, thanks!
I think your 45 degree calculation is the heart of the potential solution, where the loads are equivalent to the mrp when using the jib halyard. So as long as I can heave the mast and furler up to 45 degrees, I could then use the jib halyard the rest of the way without overloading. Does this 45 degree calculation vary much using the deck cleat, the forestay bracket, or the rail? I would probably run around the bow rail and down to the either the forestay anchor or the deck cleat for maximum leverage.
I find the factory mrp to be a bit stressful and it seems to put a LOT of force to get the mast off the deck, I always worry something is going to give at that stage. Using the jib halyard gives one lots of leverage above about 45 degrees or so. Thanks again.

[Flightfollowing]

Maybe I'm over complicating this. Does anyone raise the mast manually as per the manual, with one person lifting and one person pulling the forestay, with a roller furling Genoa? If so, how hard is it? Does anyone do it while floating, or just on the trailer?

[Tomfoolery]

What do your cad drawings and calculations show for the loads on the normal MRS system when attached to the factory bail where the baby stays are? I was always curious about that starting load where the mast just lifts the first inch off the stern crutch.

I had done this one a while back, for a discussion about attaching using the bail, or the halyard, with the M-style MRS.



Just remember that these are dimensionally fairly accurate, but I don't know what the mast with furler and sail actually weighs. The empty mast is light enough that I can easily pick it up and carry it around, so I suspect the total package is less than 100lb.

[Tomfoolery]

I think your 45 degree calculation is the heart of the potential solution, where the loads are equivalent to the mrp when using the jib halyard. So as long as I can heave the mast and furler up to 45 degrees, I could then use the jib halyard the rest of the way without overloading. Does this 45 degree calculation vary much using the deck cleat, the forestay bracket, or the rail? I would probably run around the bow rail and down to the either the forestay anchor or the deck cleat for maximum leverage.
I find the factory mrp to be a bit stressful and it seems to put a LOT of force to get the mast off the deck, I always worry something is going to give at that stage. Using the jib halyard gives one lots of leverage above about 45 degrees or so. Thanks again.

Using the bow rail, which I guessed at 2 ft higher than the deck, I get a 25% decrease in halyard load. Using the deck fitting for the MRS gives a 40% increase in halyard load. All other things being equal (at 45 deg.).

But that's useful mainly for demonstrating what's happening so you can make some decisions about how to proceed. You certainly could just do it old-school, with someone on top pulling the forestay/furler, and someone or two below pushing the mast up. Might get a little dicey if/when something hangs up, as someone has/have to hold it while the snag is cleared. I'd probably just do that myself if I had the help, but I never do, and need to be totally self-sufficient. I used to stand the mast up on my Aquarius myself (hank-on sails, though), but that's not something I'm going to attempt now.

And you don't have to stick to 45 degrees - if someone is pulling the halyard as it goes up, they can assist right from the start. Just be careful about cleating it off when the mast is low, as the force goes up real fast with reduced angle, and can easily rip something out or stretch and just keep on falling if you don't have enough 'leverage'.

[BOAT]

I dunno, the numbers speak for themselves 300 pounds vs. 3000 pounds I think I will always use the MRS myself.

[1st Sail]

I did a mast raising without the MRS just to see if I could handle the process in case of a MRS failure. Deadlifting while on the trailer was tough. Doing the same on open water waiting for a bridge to open would be a significant risk. Any wave action however small would amplify the mast swing to point of no control. I don't think you could control the mast swing even with adjustable tension baby stays.

[Cougar]

Maybe I'm over complicating this. Does anyone raise the mast manually as per the manual, with one person lifting and one person pulling the forestay, with a roller furling Genoa? If so, how hard is it? Does anyone do it while floating, or just on the trailer?

Yes, I did it a few times last year, when I just had my . It can be done, but it's no fun. You'll have to stand on the hatch and lift it all the way up, which is hazardous for your back. Or, like I did, stand in the cockpit, start pushing the mast and while pushing, stepping up to the hatch. This is tricky too. Reason enough for me to start building my own MRS, which I stow in the front berth during the season.