Water incursion

[DaveC426913]

I've only taken SeaSaw out three times, so it's still early in the season, but I'm getting enough water in the bilge to suspect it's not just winter runoff. (I usually get a little bit at the start of the season).

Below decks is dry when I first step on, but by the time I'm out on the water and hoisting canvas, I've already got some on the cabin floor. I sort of assume it's sloshing out of the bilge when the boat shifts.

Last week we took her out for the Commodore's Sailpast. No wind, no waves, an utterly eventless motor trip lasting a mere half hour. Still, I had an inch of water on the cabin floor.

The other day, I took her out in 1.5m waves and 20 knots winds across the harbor. She lived up to her name SeaSaw. I hit quite a few rivet-popping waves. This left 2 inches of water on the cabin floor (plenty enough to drown an erstwhile-charging $300 cellphone - trust me on this). Didn't help that, without the dodger on, I could have gotten 2 gallons of wave water over the deck and down the hatch.

This water is brown, suggesting it's been in the bilge for a while.

I know a few things I can check.

*Drop some food colouring in the ballast tank and see if it's leaking from there.
*Check before the trip to be sure the bilge is dry not just the cabin floor.
*Check for incursion around the shroud plates.
*Check the scupper hoses in the stern.

Any other suggestions?

[Starscream]

My guesses:

1) One of the three thru hulls. The sink in the galley and the sink in the bathroom are possibilities, but those outlets (or in your case inlets?) are not usually under the waterline. The rear thru-hull is the one that scares me on my boat. It's constantly dipping under the waterline, and it leads directly to the rear bilge. It's an easy one to check at the dock. Plug the drain outlet on the stern of the boat, fill up the deck-well with water, and wait for 15 minutes. If the water level goes down in the deck-well then that's your source. Use a good plug like one of these https://www.google.ca/search?q=marine+d ... MXoyVO-KM: (don't know what diameter the hole is so check first).

2) Cracked ballast tank. That's an expensive one, and the food-coloring is the way to go to detect it. It's very rare and I only remember one post about that problem.

I don't think it's your chainplates or other deck attachment points, you wouldn't get that much water from those locations.

[DaveC426913]

fill up the deck-well with water, and wait for 15 minutes.

Oh my stars and garters...

When I bail out the cabin, I use a manual "bike pump" type bailer. The outlet hose is only about 5 feet - just long enough to reach up onto the cockpit floor - where it runs astern into the deck well.

What if, all this time, I've been bailing bilge water right back into the bilge...

(Might explain why it's so brown. Like triple-brewed coffee!)

[Starscream]

Well, the shoe fits.

Some of the water would escape around the sides of the well, and some would go through the drain pipe, but certainly if there was a leak some would go back into the bilge.

When I re-read your original post, all the symptoms match a leaky deck-well drain pipe. When your boat is at the dock, the drain hole is up above the water line and doesn't add any water to the bilge, but when out on the water, each passing wave can let a few drops in. This might be compounded by having a heavy load at the stern, such as when using the swim ladder.

I'll double-down on the deck-well theory.

[beene]

You forgot to mention you ran out of gas that day....

Had to sail back into the marina....

That gets a wee bit dangerous

Remember Dave

Gas up, head out

G

[Tomfoolery]

This is what it looks like behind that wide panel in the stern. I don't know if this is the OEM setup, but it's not pretty.



And yes, those are schedule 40 PVC elbows and barb fittings.

[Starscream]

Damn, that's a scary photo.

It's exactly that photo that made me put in an automatic bilge pump. The bilge pump was one of the cheapest and easiest mods I have done: less than $150 if I remember correctly, and not complicated at all. It took me some time to get the nerve up to drill a hole in the side of the boat, and when I did it was high up under the galley, above the chine. A pump, a thru-hull, some marine sealant, four feet of hose, two hose clamps, an on/off/auto switch, some marine epoxy to hold the pump in place plus about 2 hours of work. Oh yeah, I had to go back and order a separate float switch because the pump I picked off the rack didn't have an integral float switch. Rookie mistake on my part.

[paul I]

This is what it looks like behind that wide panel in the stern. I don't know if this is the OEM setup, but it's not pretty.



And yes, those are schedule 40 PVC elbows and barb fittings.

Really though, short of dispensing with the molded-in hull barbs and going to real bulkhead fittings, there isn't a much better solution. If the tubing is in good shape all should be good. Common practice is to use two clamps per joint, which you can do if there is available room. The PVC fittings don't scare me at all. I'd be more afraid of the tubing eventually fatiguing from repeated winter freeze cycles.

In Dave's case, with the symptoms he's reporting, I'd bet on something amiss there as well (kind of a pun there isn't it). It's likely to take on more water when motoring with the boat on plane and all. Be sure to clean out the rear bilges soon. I just found out they can trap significant water over time that does not get released anywhere else, not even the "warning hole".

[DaveC426913]

You forgot to mention you ran out of gas that day....
Had to sail back into the marina....
That gets a wee bit dangerous
Remember Dave
Gas up, head out

Yeah. I did stop in at my usual gas bar but - like all the other marinas on this part of the lake - it is closed because of the high water levels.

What was foolish was heading back at top speed. I would have had plenty of gas if I'd kept it under 10 knots.

[DaveC426913]

It's exactly that photo that made me put in an automatic bilge pump. The bilge pump was one of the cheapest and easiest mods I have done: less than $150 if I remember correctly, and not complicated at all. It took me some time to get the nerve up to drill a hole in the side of the boat, and when I did it was high up under the galley, above the chine. A pump, a thru-hull, some marine sealant, four feet of hose, two hose clamps, an on/off/auto switch, some marine epoxy to hold the pump in place plus about 2 hours of work. Oh yeah, I had to go back and order a separate float switch because the pump I picked off the rack didn't have an integral float switch. Rookie mistake on my part.

Where did you place the pump/float?

Also, is it unswitched (i.e. bypass the main panel switch), so that it will fire up even when the boat is put to bed?

[Starscream]

Hi Dave,

I put the pump and the float switch under the galley, but more towards the rear of the area behind the black molded drawers. This is where I first see water start to build up after extended rains.

I chose to wire through the battery selector switch, so if the switch is OFF the pump doesn't work. I chose to do it that way because I want the selector to have true ON/OFF control of ALL accessories. My logic was that if I'm on the boat, the switch is ON and the bilge pump works. If the boat sinks while I'm at home, that's what insurance is for. I don't think there's anything wrong with wiring directly to the battery, but I personally don't like things that stay on when I'm not there. Fire hazard.

It really was an easy mod with nothing physically hard about it, especially after the black galley insert was removed. Some mental challenges, especially in wiring the external float switch (it was very simple in retrospect but electrical wiring diagrams sometimes look harder than they are). When I installed the thru-hull I ordered a plastic one from Perko because I didn't want a metal one visible on the side of the boat above the chine, and I wanted a quality fitting. I bought longer-than-necessary drain piping as well, so that I could loop it up to the top of the underside of the galley to reduce risk of water incursion on a really steep heel. The pump came with a backflow valve, but better safe than sorry. When I was done I cut a small triangle of bug netting and rolled it into a cone and inserted it lightly into the thru-hull from the outside. Any water flow will knock the bug netting out, but it keeps the spiders out. I imagine a few years of spider nesting could entirely block the drain pipe.

I'll take some photos next time I go down to the marina. We're having some nasty weather and I don't think that I'll be there before Wednesday.

[paul I]

Damn, that's a scary photo.

It's exactly that photo that made me put in an automatic bilge pump. The bilge pump was one of the cheapest and easiest mods I have done: less than $150 if I remember correctly, and not complicated at all. It took me some time to get the nerve up to drill a hole in the side of the boat, and when I did it was high up under the galley, above the chine. A pump, a thru-hull, some marine sealant, four feet of hose, two hose clamps, an on/off/auto switch, some marine epoxy to hold the pump in place plus about 2 hours of work. Oh yeah, I had to go back and order a separate float switch because the pump I picked off the rack didn't have an integral float switch. Rookie mistake on my part.

Going with a separate float switch is the best way to do it IMO. In my last boat I went through several pumps but only one switch assembly.

But actually, the way I now understand the way the bilges are connected, water from a leak in the motor well drain hose wont travel down to the part of the bilge where you placed the pump. It will collect in the "center" bilge area until it reaches a high enough level and then become evident when water started coming out of that warning hole under the steps.

[DaveC426913]

But actually, the way I now understand the way the bilges are connected, water from a leak in the motor well drain hose wont travel down to the part of the bilge where you placed the pump. It will collect in the "center" bilge area until it reaches a high enough level and then become evident when water started coming out of that warning hole under the steps.

That's why I was asking. Not sure where the best place for a bilge pump is. Normally, you'd want to as low as possible, but in the Mac, that might not suffice.

[133bhp]

motor well leak (and cables/console leak if no cushions/lying loose) will end up in the REAR centre or sides bilges (or both ) depending how much water come in. mostly depends on what part of the hose come loose?

if overflowing from the rear starboard bilge? then will drain to the cool box outer starbaord bilge,. if oveflowing from the centre rear bilge, will end up in the centre board inner bilge. and under the sink if from the rear port bilge.

when heeling, possible they will end up anywhere. but the rear bigles wont drain fully. they need eyeballing and sponged out.

tell tale will need all the rear to be flooded to a high degree before any will show up - not by any of the rear bilges on their own.

clearing using a stick down the well drain can disloge the crappy tube/clips

so, I dont see any point in a bilge pump. too many seperate chambers and levels too shallow. eaiser to sponge out. I have however, for a big flood like a well drain being off. made a roving 12v fish pond type pump that I can snake a small tube around.

Lastly, the bow can collect water and wont drain unless heeled. a small pump as above can be stuck in the hole, or I just leave a coupe of rags there, to wick it out.

[Starscream]

My bilge pump has never been used. I have it in case of a failure in the deck well, or maybe even a hull breach. It's not to take out the water that normally collects in the bilges, I do that with a sponge. The location is OK for me because the kind of leak I am worried about will quickly find its way there.