Learning to sail better

[DaveC426913]

So I will ask again, Are You Using a Vang?? Is there any way to transfer more of the "pull" forward? (What I really think the X boat needs is the mainsheet moved forward, that would also eliminate the need for a backstay.)

I'm reading up on this:
http://www.nauticed.org/sailing-blog/st ... ts-tracks/
and it seems to be suggesting that easing the vang is what you want to do is ease the vang. (Option 4, middle of page).
Easing the vang puts more twist in the sail at the top, allowing it to properly align with the wind direction.

[BOAT]

I missed your post on the vang above, and on that all I can say is that your issues sounds to be too serious to be addressed by just the vang. Your absolutely sure the rudders are in the water when the boat rounds up, right?

This "rounding up" stuff has me a little upset - it should not be happening as long as there is still enough rudder in the water and enough forward movement across the rudder to turn the boat. I will not be silenced anymore by people who want to try to make me think this is something normal - I do not believe it is normal.

Something is wrong here.

I know you must already know this because of your experience but I am forced to go back to basics here:

'Rounding Up' as a safety feature is nothing more than the ultimate result of 'Weather Helm' - ALL boats (except race boats) are properly tuned to Weather Helm for obvious reasons - race boats have stay adjusters and boom travelers so they can add lee helm to reduce rudder drag in a race - and really the perfectly balanced boat has no helm at all, the boat would track straight with no additional rudder angle at any heel as long as there was enough rudder in the water and forward movement to use the rudder but such a boat would not exist because the bottom would need to be a sphere to not be effected by heel, So, we all tune our boats to weather helm as a practice, but that does not mean ALL weather helm is good - it can be excessive.

When a boat is on it's side the shape of the bottom profile presented to the surface of the water is changed - the shape goes from symmetrical to asymmetrical and the effect this has on the direction of the boat through the water is PARTLY to blame for "weather helm" - and race boats will use a boom traveler to move the mainsheet closer to the mast to add lee helm to counter this. For our boats that is the ONLY weather helm we should tolerate - the normal helm that would be created by a perfectly balanced boat that is being sailed on it's side - the sails should NOT be the source of the weather helm! The HULL should be the source! The sails should perform in a fairly balanced manner across all angles of heel. If the sails are balanced the boat will turn into the weather when it's on it's side because the shape of the bottom is presenting a curved turning hull shape to the surface of the water, NOT because the sails are changing their balance!

I assume your already starting with way too much sail horsepower on the rear of the boat - you need to get more sail power moved forward and get that boat balanced.

[DaveC426913]

I missed your post on the vang above, and on that all I can say is that your issues sounds to be too serious to be addressed by just the vang. Your absolutely sure the rudders are in the water when the boat rounds up, right?

How could they not be on a Mac? Yes, both rudders are always fully deployed. The leeward in the water.

Something is wrong here.

There could be a number of culprits, simpyl because of the number of things I have not optimized. Mast rake, shroud tension, backstay tension, flying a 150 Genoa in strong winds.

I gotta say, the realization that the Genoa reaches back to the cockpit and thus pulls on the after, seems to raise an eyebrow.

'Rounding Up' as a safety feature is nothing more than the ultimate result of 'Weather Helm' - ALL boats (except race boats) are properly tuned to Weather Helm for obvious reasons - race boats have stay adjusters and boom travelers so they can add lee helm to reduce rudder drag in a race - and really the perfectly balanced boat has no helm at all, the boat would track straight with no additional rudder angle at any heel

How could a boat be "tuned" to manifest weather helm unless that tuning was maintained by me?

I assume your already starting with way too much sail horsepower on the rear of the boat

A 50HP is pretty tame nowadays.

you need to get more sail power moved forward and get that boat balanced.

I'd normally only partly furl the jenny - as an attempt to simply reduce sail area - if I were actually worried about being blown over. But furling it a little so that its pulling force is moved forward might do the trick. I'll give that a try next time.

[BOAT]

Is there any possibility that the centerboard is being pushed aft? I don't know the X boat much - is there a locking pin on the X boat to prevent the centerboard from moving when it's fully extended? What other things could possibly be turning that boat into the wind? I'm trying to brainstorm anything I can think of. I wonder if the X boat would benefit from a slightly modified centerboard that was just an inch wider? Maybe adding an inch to the front of the board? I am assuming the culprit is the genoa, but only another X driver could really confirm this. I hope you figure it out and let us know - I am stumped.

[DaveC426913]

Is there any possibility that the centerboard is being pushed aft? I don't know the X boat much - is there a locking pin on the X boat to prevent the centerboard from moving when it's fully extended? What other things could possibly be turning that boat into the wind? I'm trying to brainstorm anything I can think of. I wonder if the X boat would benefit from a slightly modified centerboard that was just an inch wider? Maybe adding an inch to the front of the board? I am assuming the culprit is the genoa, but only another X driver could really confirm this. I hope you figure it out and let us know - I am stumped.

I don't think there's any locking pin, no. Certainly nothing the skipper has anything to do with. I'd be pretty impressed if the board could be moved under that kind of lateral pressure. But it should be easy enough to check. All I'd have to do is pull on the CB line. If it has any play, then the CB has lifted. My initial answer though is no.

The least managed thing on my boat is standing rigging. If other 's don't have the same problem (when using the same sail plan), I'd put that high on the list.
My shrouds are tight - though the lee shrouds are not necessarily taut when on a 30 degree heel. The aft stay is loose.

But it is also possible that I am simply not configuring the boat for sailing in a wind that blows it over to 30+ degrees in the same way a more experienced sailor might.

[DaveC426913]

Frankly, I think it would be super cool if those of us geographically proximate joined up for a sail on each others' boats. I bet the knowledge sharing would be invaluable.

I'm off for the next two weeks if anyone's around the GTA area and wants to go for a sail - theirs or mine or both.

[K9Kampers]

Re centerboard - no locking pin. Previous discussions in the archives of centerboard design. That little musical slop-slap in the cb trunk at anchor actually allows force against the cb to pinch the area above the pivot pin against the trunk side to 'lock it in'.

[K9Kampers]

Frankly, I think it would be super cool if those of us geographically proximate joined up for a sail on each others' boats. I bet the knowledge sharing would be invaluable.

I'm off for the next two weeks if anyone's around the GTA area and wants to go for a sail - theirs or mine or both.

I'm only 529 miles away!

[DaveC426913]

I'm only 529 miles away!

Moosonee??

(Your location in your prof has your boat type instead of your location.)

[K9Kampers]

I'm only 529 miles away!

Moosonee??

Go East... central NH

[DaveC426913]

I assume your already starting with way too much sail horsepower on the rear of the boat - you need to get more sail power moved forward and get that boat balanced.

I have been doubting whether simply moving the ail forward should make a difference. While sail area may be moved forward, the sheet/cleat has not, and is therefore pulling from just as far astern in both cases.

So I had to draw up a diagram to understand it.

It seems that moving the sail forward shortens the distance through which the pulling force of the sheet/block/cleat can act. In the diagram, A' is shorter A. Like using a long-handled wrench versus a short-handled wrench, the long-handled provides more torque. I want less torque. So I want the short-handled wrench.

[BOAT]

I assume your already starting with way too much sail horsepower on the rear of the boat - you need to get more sail power moved forward and get that boat balanced.

I have been doubting whether simply moving the ail forward should make a difference. While sail area may be moved forward, the sheet/cleat has not, and is therefore pulling from just as far astern in both cases.

So I had to draw up a diagram to understand it.

It seems that moving the sail forward shortens the distance through which the pulling force of the sheet/block/cleat can act. In the diagram, A' is shorter A. Like using a long-handled wrench versus a short-handled wrench, the long-handled provides more torque. I want less torque. So I want the short-handled wrench.

Wow, okay, for the third time guys,

Remember? I said:

"The fact that your main is a 4:1 block should be a hint to you as to how much horsepower is really coming from that main sheet . . . . . . . The Genoa sheets are pulling directly on the back of the boat too . . . . . . . I suspect it would help the X boat to move more of that mainsheet “pull” towards the mast by transferring it with a boom Vang . . . . "

I did not say to move the SAILS forward, I said move the sail POWER forward.

Maybe if I say it differently: The POWER of the sails is transferred to the boat by the stays, the mast, and the sheets. To move power you need to move THOSE THINGS, NOT THE SAILS.

It's pretty hard to move the stays or the mast, so all that leaves you with are the SHEETS.

Again, Moving the sheets forward is a possible remedy, or another possibility is a bowsprit - sometimes a bowsprit can help move headsail power out in front of the boat.

If your using a smaller sail in the same cleats your not moving the sail power at all.

All your doing in that case is reducing the overall sail power. Also, in the diagram the first boat has more force pulling the stern than the second boat. The second boat has more force pulling forward than the first boat, there for the second boat in the picture would round up later than the first boat - I think that sort of contradicts your conclusion.

Something is pushing the back of the boat away from the wind - it's either THE WIND, or it's the shape of the hull.

[Starscream]

In my case, the boat always rounds up in the gusts in winds above 15 kn, which usually means 20 in the gusts. I don't think it's a boat problem, it's a sailplan problem caused by the captain's choices. I choose to always use a full main and full jib when sailing in those winds, because it's fun and if family was on board in that weather I'd be under motor power.

I get what Boat is saying, and it's right, but could it be that the simpler answer to our amateur rounding up problem is too much mainsail? It only happens to me under full sail when the boat hits about 45 degrees and the rudders are acting more like airplane elevators. My (very rookie) opinion is that a good reef would fix the problem. Dave have you tried sailing reefed?

The fact that I can stop the round up by letting out the mainsheet quickly makes me think that the reef is the simplest place to start.

[BOAT]

22 knots is a lot of wind - I too would be reefing (furling) the genoa in that kind of wind. The M boat sails pretty good on the main alone, so I really do not consider a reef in the main until all the genoa is gone. If at THAT point I still feel I need more reef I will reef the main and start adding back in a little more genoa. Reefing the main really knocks down the wind greatly on 'boat' - so much so that I feel too slow and feel the need to start adding in some head sail.

I can remember a time with winds gusting 21 to 28 I had the main reefed and I was on the autopilot trying to maintain 5.5 knots and found myself furling and unfurling the genoa more than I was adjusting the mainsheet to maintain 5.5 knots!

When the boat would heel to the point that I slowed to 5 knots I tried letting out the main but all that did was make the boat lean less and go slower, so I pulled the main back in and furled in the genoa another 3 feet and the boat started going faster! It did not help with the heel as much but it did make the helm straighten out more (less weather helm) and I got to 6 knots.

I get the best performance in about 14 to 16 mph winds with full genoa and main: almost 7 knots, but if the wind goes over 20 the boat will lean over and the pilot adds more helm and I go back to 6.5 or even less. It's maddening.

Rounding up is never even on my mind - it just never happens. That would drive me crazy.

[Starscream]

Interesting. Two totally different boats, the X and the M, it seems. My X can't sail on the main alone in high winds, it automatically rounds up sticks itself facing the wind like it's heaved-to. I heard from an old forum member named Mastreb that this was a common issue with other X boat too. Maybe the centreboard is just too far forward or the mast is too far back. Well, Roger said the M was a better sailboat.

I'm pretty sure the X boat round-ups can be solved with reefing, and one day I'll put a reefing line in and try to prove it. One day.